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General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich

Except that they are created with the intent to be used to inflect harm.


As was Agent Orange.



What do you think their intention was, to weed vietnamese fields and help their crops? No. it was to turn their jungle into deadlands so that they could kill them.

Gibsie is offline Gibsie
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all over the proverbial shop
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 00:46
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You mean it was a Weapon deployed in order to cause Mass Destruction? I wonder if Kucinich knows what that WMD word he keeps using stands for...

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 02:03
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General Ludd - the potencial of harm to human life does not make a thing a weapon. You can't claim that anything that doesn't specifically intent to not-kill a person is a weapon.

Not a lethal-one at least.

The cellular phone for instance, possibly causes cancer.

It was not created to try and hurt humans, but it was also not created to try and "avoid" hurting humans. The makers just didn't give a damn.

By your definition, it is a weapon- no?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
Question  Old Post 20-05-2004 02:07 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Senate approves $5.6 billion bioshield measure

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Jesse J. Holland

May 19, 2004 | WASHINGTON (AP) --

The discovery of sarin gas in Iraq and the use of anthrax and ricin against Congress spurred the Senate Wednesday to approve $5.6 billion to help prepare for possible germ or chemical attacks on American soil.

The Senate, on a 99-0 vote, approved ‘‘Project BioShield" legislation to pay for research, production and stockpiling of vaccines and antidotes for bioterror agents. The House already has approved the legislation, and lawmakers on both sides say they hope to soon have it to President Bush for his signature.

Lawmakers are moving quickly on the legislation because America is not prepared for a major bioterror attack, said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn. The sarin gas discovered in a roadside bomb Monday in Iraq, and the ricin and anthrax attacks on the Capitol complex ‘‘demonstrated that bioterror is here," said Frist, whose office was mailed a letter containing ricin last fall. ‘‘It's on our own soil, it's hit this nation, hit this Capitol, hit the entire East Coast, and indeed it was deadly."

The legislation, covering the next 10 years, would provide incentives to the pharmaceutical industry to research and develop bioterrorism countermeasures, accelerate the approval process for antidotes and, in an emergency, allow the government to distribute certain treatments before the Food and Drug Administration approved them.

‘‘The bill before the Senate guarantees that any company which develops a successful new product for these threats will find a willing buyer in the federal government," said Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass. ‘‘With that guarantee, companies will make the investments needed to prepare for any attack."

Added Tommy Thompson, head of the Health and Human Services Department: ‘‘We're going to be able to push the industry in order to do research in particular areas and then we're going to be able to provide them with a market after they find the kind of remedies and solutions that we need."

Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H, said the effort will be expensive. But, he said, ‘‘we had to set up a structure where we make it viable for our private-sector pharmaceutical industries and biotechnology industries to invest the extraordinary amount of money it takes to invest in the production of this type of response capability," he said.

In cases where the private sector does not respond, the bill allows the government to operate emergency programs to research and produce vaccines.

Bush has been calling for the legislation since his 2003 State of the Union address.

‘‘Project BioShield is critical for strengthening the nation's ability to protect Americans against biological, chemical, nuclear, and radiological terrorist threats," the White House said in a statement Wednesday.

Among the agents to be included in Project BioShield are smallpox, anthrax, botulism toxin, plague and Ebola.

The House overwhelmingly passed a version of the bill last year, and now the two sides will have to come to a compromise before it heads to the White House for Bush's signature.

But Gregg said, ‘‘I expect the House to take our bill and move it on to the president." House Homeland Security chairman Chris Cox, R-Calif., also said he expected the legislation to go to the president without a formal House-Senate conference.

Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, D-Mass., did not vote. :

Gibsie is offline Gibsie
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all over the proverbial shop
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
The cellular phone for instance, possibly causes cancer.

It was not created to try and hurt humans, but it was also not created to try and "avoid" hurting humans. The makers just didn't give a damn.

By your definition, it is a weapon- no?


If people take the actively dangerous aspect of a mobile phone and apply it over a wide area in order to cause death and/ or destruction, it certainly is. Organisms like Bacillus anthracis do not exist as weapons to kill people, but that sure as hell doesn't mean they can't be used as weapons, does it?

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 03:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
General Ludd - the potencial of harm to human life does not make a thing a weapon. You can't claim that anything that doesn't specifically intent to not-kill a person is a weapon.

Not a lethal-one at least.

The cellular phone for instance, possibly causes cancer.

It was not created to try and hurt humans, but it was also not created to try and "avoid" hurting humans. The makers just didn't give a damn.

By your definition, it is a weapon- no?



I don't think I offered a definition of 'weapon'. I'm in favour of common sense over semantics.


But you are forgeting that Agent Orange's purpose was to kill all plant life in an area, that it had a strictly military use, and that it was only used against enemy locations and territory.

Is that not a weapon?


Bombs dropped on railways and bridges - are they not weapons, either?

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 03:06
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Agent Orange has no peaceful application.

Best case scenario, it's a tool for razing land and 'salting' the earth.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 04:26
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Well it's not really a useful weapon either.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
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Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 04:28 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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Yeah -- it failed to destroy ALL of Vietnam's agriculture -- God darn it!!

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 04:29 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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An area of Vietnam the size of Massachusetts was turned into desert.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 20-05-2004 04:30 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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It destroyed a huge portion of Vietnam's agriculture production, yes, but not ALL of it.


And besides, my remark was more of a sarcastic jibe at DD.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 04:30 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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I was adding detail. I don't always contradict you.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 04:31 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I was adding detail. I don't always contradict you.


ok

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 04:42
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Allow me to quote one of my betters: As a weapon, it [Agent Orange] would be useless, since anyone sprayed with it (including my brother) was perfectly capable of shooting at you for days, weeks, months and years. In fact, many people with significant AO exposure will die of old age with no verifiable direct effects from AO.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
The cellular phone for instance, possibly causes cancer.

It was not created to try and hurt humans, but it was also not created to try and "avoid" hurting humans. The makers just didn't give a damn.

By your definition, it is a weapon- no?


As a detonator it was in Spain.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Allow me to quote one of my betters: As a weapon, it [Agent Orange] would be useless, since anyone sprayed with it (including my brother) was perfectly capable of shooting at you for days, weeks, months and years. In fact, many people with significant AO exposure will die of old age with no verifiable direct effects from AO.


No, it doesn't make a good conventional weapon, because it isn't. But when you're really sprayed with it and you're eating, drinking and breathing the stuff it isn't something to shrug off. It may not kill you instantly, but bio/chemical weapons often don't. Niether was it ineffective at destroying and poisoning the land - afterall, it's still killing people.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:17
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I can't believe there are still dip-shits on this board who seriously refer to Agent Orange as a "weapon". I thought we had dealt with that stupidity already...

MrFun is offline MrFun
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Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:22 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Allow me to quote one of my betters: As a weapon, it [Agent Orange] would be useless, since anyone sprayed with it (including my brother) was perfectly capable of shooting at you for days, weeks, months and years. In fact, many people with significant AO exposure will die of old age with no verifiable direct effects from AO.



That does not completely negate the fact that toxic chemicals harm people.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
As was Agent Orange.


Um, no, didn't we just go over this? Agent Orange was created with the intent to kill plants. Not people. Despite what environmentalists may have told you, plants are NOT people too. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 09:23
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
Agent Orange has no peaceful application.


You mean besides removing foliage, of course.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
You mean it was a Weapon deployed in order to cause Mass Destruction? I wonder if Kucinich knows what that WMD word he keeps using stands for...


As I've pointed out several times, the "weapon" part pretty much precludes Agent Orange from being WMD.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
If people take the actively dangerous aspect of a mobile phone and apply it over a wide area in order to cause death and/ or destruction, it certainly is. Organisms like Bacillus anthracis do not exist as weapons to kill people, but that sure as hell doesn't mean they can't be used as weapons, does it?


And yet this wasn't the point of Agent Orange - it wasn't spread over a wide area in order to cause death and/or destruction (of people).

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich


You mean besides removing foliage, of course.



Oh yes, I forgot that it's a 'defoliant'. Such a nice, dainty, term they use describe it, isn't it? It makes it sound so.... harmless.








quote:
it wasn't spread over a wide area in order to cause death and/or destruction (of people).



You just keep on believing that.


I guess the military designed, tested, and deployed it against their enemies for a laugh. When practical jokes go awry...

Gibsie is offline Gibsie
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all over the proverbial shop
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
And yet this wasn't the point of Agent Orange - it wasn't spread over a wide area in order to cause death and/or destruction (of people).


I think the "people" part is a misnomer introduced into the discussion. These are WMD's, not Weapons of Mass Homicide or Weapons of Mass Murder or even Weapons of Mass Killing.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Saddam Hussein was a thug, right? I've dealt with a few thugs in my time and I can state with reasonable certainty that thugs are not big on documentation. If they were theu would have gone into corporate accountaincy.


I thought they would become CEO's and CFO's

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Allow me to quote one of my betters: As a weapon, it [Agent Orange] would be useless, since anyone sprayed with it (including my brother) was perfectly capable of shooting at you for days, weeks, months and years. In fact, many people with significant AO exposure will die of old age with no verifiable direct effects from AO.


Have some arsenic.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
I think the "people" part is a misnomer introduced into the discussion. These are WMD's, not Weapons of Mass Homicide or Weapons of Mass Murder or even Weapons of Mass Killing.


Excellent point.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
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Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:18
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quote:
I guess the military designed, tested, and deployed it against their enemies for a laugh.


No, they designed, tested and deployed it in order to kill plants. The jungles of South Vietnam, in this case. That's what defoliants are made to do, kill plants...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
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Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Have some arsenic.
Which has anything at all to do with my post in what way?

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
I guess the military designed, tested, and deployed it against their enemies for a laugh.


No, they designed, tested and deployed it in order to kill plants. The jungles of South Vietnam, in this case. That's what defoliants are made to do, kill plants...


And why did they want to do that... for a laugh? Nevermind that they knew it did more then just 'kill plants'.


My question from before was never answered - are bombs dropped on railways and bridges not weapons?

 
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