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Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:33
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quote:
And why did they want to do that... for a laugh?


Because it's easier to find Charlie on a barren plain than it is in a thick jungle?

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Which has anything at all to do with my post in what way?


That arsenic had been the choice of poison since who knows when debunks your quoted message quite nicely.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:37
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Poison isn't a weapon, unless it kills quickly.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That arsenic had been the choice of poison ...
Which again has what to do with the factual basis for the quoted msg? If you really aren't interested in dealing with that, why even go on this track in the first place? It's like mentioning the US in a thread about China.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
And why did they want to do that... for a laugh?


Because it's easier to find Charlie on a barren plain than it is in a thick jungle?


So that they could kill him?


Or did they just want to hand out chocolate bars?




And since you could't answer my question about bombs being dropped on railways and bridges, how about nuclear missles that are supposedly built as a 'deterant' - are they also not weapons?


It's too bad they didn't drop Fat Man and Little Boy with the intention of killing musquitos - they could've avoided an atrocity.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:48
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quote:
So that they could kill him?


Yeah, so they could kill them with actual weapons, something Agent Orange is not...

quote:
And since you could't answer my question about bombs being dropped on railways and bridges


I don't believe I tried to answer it. Just because I'm tossing rocks at the short bus doesn't mean I'm going to do whatever the occupants inside ask of me.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Poison isn't a weapon, unless it kills quickly.


I reckon your local police force would beg to differ.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I don't believe I tried to answer it.



Indeed. Always good to see people ignore anything that doesn't support their (already weak) argument.


Just keep on barrying your head in the sand... Maybe you can get a job designing weapons.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:54 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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I'm not arguing that the purpose of Agent Orange was NOT to defoil the jungle coverage, but I'm also not going to ignore the other multiple effects this toxic chemical had.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
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  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Which again has what to do with the factual basis for the quoted msg? If you really aren't interested in dealing with that, why even go on this track in the first place?


Your quoted message confused various sorts of weapons. Asserting Agent Orange is not a good weapon because it doesn't kill fast enough is incomplete at best.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:56
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quote:
I reckon your local police force would beg to differ.


I doubt they would. If I poisoned someone, they would charge me with murder (or attempted murder, if I failed) which doesn't require that I use a weapon. I seriously doubt they would charge me with assault with a deadly weapon, however, which does require that I use a weapon. Why? Because poison isn't a weapon...

Of course, it's understandable that you don't understand how a police force that actually has to worry about "rules" and irrelevant things like that operates.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 17:59
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quote:
Indeed. Always good to see people ignore anything that doesn't support their (already weak) argument.


It was never my argument to defend. My only argument is that you're a moron for thinking Agent Orange is a weapon. I believe I've supported it quite well.

quote:
Maybe you can get a job designing weapons.


God, I hope so. That would be sweet.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Your quoted message confused various sorts of weapons. Asserting Agent Orange is not a good weapon because it doesn't kill fast enough is incomplete at best.
From a military standpoint it isn't precisely for that reason. Arsenic isn't used as a military weapon either because it kills so slowly. Next you'll be arguing the military uses of cigarettes.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
Thumbs up  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:03
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quote:
Next you'll be arguing the military uses of cigarettes.


General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It was never my argument to defend. My only argument is that you're a moron for thinking Agent Orange is a weapon. I believe I've supported it quite well.


You haven't supported it at all. Every time I have posed you a question as to what makes a weapon, you have ignored it.


Apparently your argument is that what you say is so, and that is that. Maybe when you learn how to form coherent arguments, we can continue this.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
You haven't supported it at all. Every time I have posed you a question as to what makes a weapon, you have ignored it.


quote:
weap·on n.
An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.


Maybe once you have an elementary understanding of the English language, we can continue this...

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:50
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It is useless for those of you trying to reframe the meaning of WMD as people much smarter than you and much more important (yes, by inference you are not) have long ago applied the label of WMD to specific weapons which has become the defacto nomenclature virtually world wide.

So go somewhere else and argue why checkers can't use red squares. It is just as useless and won't bog down everyone else’s discourse. Unless of course you would like to abandon the childish misnomers and focus on the points that might be valid hidden underneath your childish rhetoric.

------------

The difference between conventional and unconventional weapons stems primarily from the physical operation of the weapons, or rather their venue of dealing death. The WWII nukes were such a departure in technology and scale (especially with a marked lack in intermediate scale weapons) that it was and still is indeed, unconventional. The term was used before nukes (Great War gas), but was not popular until after.

It is not too hard to grasp. For hundreds of years the force of destruction for weapons was based in fire and metal, or a combination of the two. The operation of a gas that kills the lining of your lungs, or splitting an atom to unleash atomic force (which is not explosive, though the later effects are) were significant departures. Explosiveness is a chemical reaction to release force in the form of kinetic and heat energy. Chemical (no energy) and nuclear weapons (no chemicals), and especially biological do neither and are thus unconventional. This isn't the first time such a drastic distinction between weapons has been made. Read a few histories about the introduction of gunpowder on warfare.

As for the classification of WMD, that is not so hard to grasp. Chemical weapons upon their first design we made specifically to be used in large areas, no smaller than square miles. Even today the best purely chemical explosive conventional weapons can be destructive in no more than a 1-mile radius and that’s pushing it. Despite how much some of you worship "daisy cutters" they can't hold a candle to a WMD used as designed. Back then the most destructive weapon was a giant trench mortar, and that was effective for a few hundred yards and only locally against hardened targets. Enter a chemical weapons attack that is released from two miles of trench line to envelope 6 square miles of front (such scale was necessary due to the weapons very design, need for winds and saturation levels) it was death on a scale no artillery shell could master.

Enter nukes, in a time where the most destructive weapon was a 1000lb bomb, we unleash a few kilotons. Care to argue over that distinction?

Them comes bioweapons. You may laugh it off now because the backyard grown anthrax is a nuisance, relative. But ask a post WWI factory worker about Influenza, or an Indian about Smallpox. Terrorist biological weapons are THE LEAST EFFECTIVE FORM of the threat. God forbid a powerful state ever decides to use their high-grade bugs. And then there is delivery. Want to guess what the scale of infection a state like the US or Russia could inflict on a population vice Habib so-and-so?

Delivery. Terrorists can deliver nukes quite effectively. Not very hard. But chemical and biological weapons are different animals. Suffice to say powder-laden envelopes are not the designed way to unleash such a weapon. They are designed to be used a certain way, and that way is scale. Chemical weapons doctrine calls for release of thousands or gallons over hundreds of square miles, delivered specifically through various mediums (water, crops, etc.). Biological weapons also call for the same in its own way.

Because Al-aba-nobody used one artillery shell in the way not intended does not make it any less a WMD than if an Iraq artillery battalion saturated a few square miles with several thousand rounds. It is not the knife's fault if a dumb ass stabs someone with the hilt, it is still a knife.

And you can't let the intermediate examples muddle the true potential of the weapons. As the strength of "conventional weapons" has increased (ie cluster bombs, napalm, etc.) the strength of "unconventional weapons" has indeed grown by leaps and bounds. I would hazard to guess the relative destruction from a WWII thousand pounder and napalm compared to that of Fat boy and a Russian "Satan" is not proportional. If anything the distinction of bio/chem/nuke weapons as a distinct and separate category is more prevalent than ever. And of course the closest comparisons of the two categories are again not due to breakthroughs in conventional weapons, but rather the dumbing down of WMD. We had to work backwards from Fat boy to make smaller nukes for tactical use, we worked backwards from mustard gas to CX, and we worked backwards from cholera/typhoid/small pox to a whole host of minor incapacitating but non-lethal bugs.


And yes Iraq obviously had illegal long range missiles, as one crashed into a Kuwaiti shopping mall during the first days of the war.

Gibsie is offline Gibsie
Emperor
all over the proverbial shop
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I reckon your local police force would beg to differ.


As does my travel-sized edition of Cluedo

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


quote:
weap·on n.
An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.


Maybe once you have an elementary understanding of the English language, we can continue this...


So is it your position that chemicals and gasses (such as the stuff this thread is about) are not weapons?

Or are you saying that Agent Orange was not used to attack... despite that it's only application is to be dropped on enemy locations and territory?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:24
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Like I said, learn English, then we'll talk. I'd suggest that "attack" be the first word you bone up on...

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


Like I said, learn English, then we'll talk. I'd suggest that "attack" be the first word you bone up on...


It's troubling when you run out of trivialities to pick up on, isn't it? Can't even bury your head in the sand anymore.


quote:

Main Entry: 1at·tack
Pronunciation: &-'tak
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle French attaquer, from (assumed) Old Italian estaccare to attach, from stacca stake, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English staca
transitive senses
1 : to set upon or work against forcefully
2 : to assail with unfriendly or bitter words
3 : to begin to affect or to act on injuriously
4 : to set to work on
5 : to threaten (a piece in chess) with immediate capture
intransitive senses : to make an attack



Explain to me how dousing enemy territory with poison is not an attack.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:49
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Breaking news -----

Universal condmenation of all 1st world nations for unbridled use of WMD. Use of herbicides now considered unfair tactic against righteous oppressed weeds.

Expect coverage at 11:00.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:50 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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Hey look everyone! Ogie is talking out of his ass again!

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:51
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Why you smell something familiar?

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:52 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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AND he's trying to be funny.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos

{A big heaping dose of reality for the zitpickers.}



Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
AND he's trying to be funny.


And you know funny in what way?

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:56 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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So you want to join my club?

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:36
Thumbs down  Old Post 20-05-2004 19:58
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
Or are you saying that Agent Orange was not used to attack... despite that it's only application is to be dropped on enemy locations and territory?


Excuse me, you ignorant Fumb Duck, THE REASON THERE ARE SO GODDAMNED MANY U.S. DEATHS FROM AGENT ORANGE IS THAT WE ROUTINELY OVERSPRAYED MANY OF OUR OWN FIREBASE PERIMETERS AND OUR OWN TROOPS ON THE GROUND.

WHY? IT WASN'T A WEAPON, IT WAS A MOTHER****ING WEEDKILLER!!!

Pull your head out and get some knowledge about the factual background of what you're talking about before you go whinging along wanting to redefine the world in your terms.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 20-05-2004 20:03
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
So you want to join my club?



OMFG NO!!!!! Shoot me now!

 
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