17-05-2004 21:13									#1
	The submarine thing is a joke, right? Right?! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, I vaguely remember reading somewhere a while ago about the Civ3 sub issue, whereing an otherwise friendly AI will accidentally run into your subs and launch an unintentional war.

Recently, I had this happen several times in one game, requiring me to reload autosaves each time because it's such a fundamentally retarded bug. Each time it happened, an ally with whom I had a mutual protection pact sank my subs and started a war.

Is there any rationale for this stupidity? I mean, first of all, if my submarines are invisible and submerged, how would that ship accidentally attack it? Second, the automatic war notion is nonsense. In the real world, such an accident could be handled with diplomacy (like the "accidental" attack on the USS Liberty).

An esay fix is that you shouldn't be allowed to sneak attack units of countries with whom you have a MPP. In Civ2, you couldn't sneak attack allies, so why the step backwards?

Also, if I move my units to attack any friendly AI unit, I get that warning box with a choice for instigating the war. Why wouldn't the AI get the same warning when it moves onto one of my subs?

Grrr, this is an aggravating bug...

	17-05-2004 21:29									#2
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I believe its been fixed. This is in Conquest right?

	17-05-2004 21:50									#3
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Has it? I was under the impression it hadn’t. Currently, I am only using subs as escorts and to beef up the occasional “sentinel” Frigate.

	17-05-2004 22:59									#4
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quote: Originally posted by dojoboy I believe its been fixed. This is in Conquest right?

Nope, I have Conquests and the latest patch.

	18-05-2004 00:47									#5
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This WAS fixed before. I've yet to come accross it in conquests though.

	18-05-2004 01:18									#6
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It's not fixed. I had MPP with both the Americans and the Greeks. An American frigate (yes, frigate) ran into my sub and it started a war. At the time, we were at war together against the Portuguese on their continent. Since we were now are at war, they attacked me in one of the cities I'd captured from the Portuguese. This triggered another MPP I had with the Greeks, who declared war on the Americans (and who was also at war with the Portuguese). The very next turn, a Greek ship accidentally hits a different sub. So then the Greeks were at war with me. I guess the funny aspect is that by this point, all four powers were at war with every other country!

	18-05-2004 02:05									#7
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It was fixed in PTW. It returned in C3C, and has not been fixed again despite several patches.

	18-05-2004 14:19									#8
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I don't remember it to be an issue at all until Conquests. Conquests brought a list of neat new features, along with twice as long a list of nasty new bugs. Stick with PtW and have fun.

	18-05-2004 18:20									#9
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After all the crap we went through with the early versions of CIV3 and PtW, I knew I was right to wait to buy conquests.

Yippee, I got it right for once (i.e. not buying civ on day 1).

	18-05-2004 18:24									#10
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And what happens if it's a human civ the one that runs into your sub?

	18-05-2004 18:25									#11
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You could say sorry it was an accident!

	18-05-2004 20:10									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Johann Moritz And what happens if it's a human civ the one that runs into your sub?

Humans get a warning box asking them if they really want to go to war. You'd think the AI would get the same courtesy!

SpencerH, actually, I think Conquests is a terrific overall. This is one of the few problems I've encountered.

	18-05-2004 21:56									#13
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And a huge, huge improvement over PTW for sure (which comes bundled with it - why did I shell out 20 quid on PTW??)

	18-05-2004 22:02									#14
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Although annoying this bug really isnt a show stopper. I like using subs as a defensive picket type force so i can stealth attack any transports going for my coastline. Of course if you use lone subs you will eventually have an ally run one over and declare war. Easy solution is to just crank out destroyers and set them on top of the subs. They are cheap and a well developed city can build one in 2 turns.

	18-05-2004 22:28									#15
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I love the "Can't get rid of dandelions and other bad weeds? Make them your favorite flower!" attitude of some.

	19-05-2004 00:13									#16
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I never use subs, so I never noticed this.

But it is pretty pathetic. A professional gaming company creating a game with such a horrible bug. They should be ashamed of themselves. . It appears to be an amatuer mistake.

	19-05-2004 00:21									#17
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Thing is, there's apparently one guy working on the C3C patches, and he didn't help write the code in the first place, so finding what went wrong seems to be rather less than trivial.

	19-05-2004 00:25									#18
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Pathetic, yes. Shame upon them. However, I found the bug useful in a recent game when I wanted a war w/out starting it myself. I just put a sub in the AI's way.

	19-05-2004 00:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I never use subs, so I never noticed this.

I got used to using them in PTW. They are an extremeley potent weapon, as you could park a dozen or so of them right outside cities of countries without them knowing, or follow their fleets around undetected. Conquests added the feature of the sub being able to choose its target in a stack (which is brilliant), but this bug mars that.

Still, what RMS (Royal Mail Steamer?) proposed would be a useful exploit. But not enough of one to balance the bug.

	19-05-2004 00:44									#20
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Were subs stealth in PtW? I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I seem remember the AI calling me on it when I sent them into its territory.

	19-05-2004 01:05									#21
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Were subs stealth in PtW? I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I seem remember the AI calling me on it when I sent them into its territory.

Nope, I used subs in PTW and could roam around AI territory at will.

	19-05-2004 02:00									#22
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In PTW the movement was Stealth but the attack wasn't so you couldnt select a target from a stack.

	19-05-2004 02:02									#23
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Boris, I guess you play mostly SP? This thread kinda tells it all wrt the bugs found in MP. Hopefully they'll get em fixed and I'll give it a try again, but if not, Rome Total War will be out this fall.

	19-05-2004 19:09									#24
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I never use subs, so it isn't much of an issue for me, but it is definitely annoying that they still haven't fixed this bug.

-Arrian

	19-05-2004 19:27									#25
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It's not only subs, Arrian. It's stealth units in general. I have seen the Byzantines declare war on the Abbasids a couple of times, because they ran with their settler/spearman pairs into Assassins (who were after me, because I was as Germany just there with own "business" ). Highly annoying, and it should be fixed ASAP.

	19-05-2004 19:36									#26
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Doh. I didn't know that. I don't play the Conquests either (I played a few at first, but I'm an Epic Game kinda guy).

Anyway, no disagreement here: this needs fixing. My opinion of Conquests (and the companies that made & sold it) will remain mediocre until this, and the few other remaining bugs are dealt with. Even when they are fixed, I will remember the buggy release (Conquests was actually worse than PTW when it comes to bugs-on-release, wasn't it?). I may even have the willpower to wait on CivIV until it drops in price and the showstopper bugs (which will very likely be present) are patched out.

-Arrian

	19-05-2004 21:07									#27
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It's hard to imagine C3C being worse than PtW given that there was a patch for PtW on the day of its release.

	19-05-2004 21:18									#28
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In conquests It will ask the human player if they want to go to war or not but the AI should allready know were the subs are and be able to avoid them If and only if they want to.

	21-05-2004 06:20									#29
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We should stop calling it the "sub bug", and start calling it the "sub exploit". Firaxis seems to go way out of its way to fix even the most obscure human exploits. At least that's the way I see it......or am I wrong?

	21-05-2004 21:57									#30
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Well, I still don't think the bugginess of release PTW or release C3C beats release Vanilla ...

(On the plus sides, it messed up a couple of pirate friends of mine, who couldn't patch their cracked games - serves 'em right!)