19-05-2004 08:36									#1
	What percentage of Americans are poor? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

and what is the best way to determine what poor is?

should certain groups not be considered?

those who are wiser than I, please discuss

Jon Miller

	19-05-2004 09:06									#2
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I'm not good at remembering numbers, but here it goes. These facts were taken from Money magazine.

in 1960 about 20% of the population was below poverty level.

In the year 2003 less than 10% of the population is below poverty level.

The libs will have you believe people are getting poorer, and the big corporations are raping the american worker. It doesn't take much common sense (although admittedly commies lack this) to look around and see how much crap- as in material goods americans have now. It is obvious they are richer than they were 40 years ago. There was a day when almost no one had more than 1 television set and one motorized vehicle. Now...

Although I will admit the main reason for that is women are now working. Thus, people are much well off than they were 40 years ago. Contrary to popular believe though, most families can survive with 1 person working. This crap that women have to work is crap. Both parents almost never have to work. It's just you have to make sacrifices. But most people are unwilling to part with their 3 tv's, 3 vcr's, 3 cars, 3000 + sq. feet homes, etc.

	19-05-2004 09:26									#3
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According to the Census Bureau, the poverty rate is 12%.

Using alternative methods, the poverty rate can be calculated as low as 7.5%.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/table2r.pdf

	19-05-2004 09:27									#4
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Remember: Even poor Americans are very rich compared to others in the world

	19-05-2004 09:29									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Remember: Even poor Americans are very rich compared to others in the world

I hear ya -- me thinks they use this diversionary claim too often.

	19-05-2004 09:31									#6
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although I do wonder if the poverty rate includes illegal immigrants.

If you take a look around my city, not too many people are poor except for illegal immigrants. Although often they fare fairly well for themselves.

In my city you can find like 8 or 10 mexicans living in a $250,000 house. So individually they aren't rich, but colletively they aren't living in the slums.

	19-05-2004 11:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident If you take a look around my city, not too many people are poor except for illegal immigrants. Although often they fare fairly well for themselves.

I doubt it... if that were so then they by themselves they make up a quarter of those below the poverty level.

	19-05-2004 11:43									#8
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I don't know.

But it wouldn't surprise me if my city had 20 or 25% of the actual population below poverty level.

	19-05-2004 11:52									#9
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5% is my guess cause i sure as hell know almost no one in the ghetto is poor...

	19-05-2004 11:54									#10
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just because they drive around with Lexus cars doesn't mean they have money.

Trust me, they are poor.

	19-05-2004 12:01									#11
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and wear 200 dollar S. Carters...

you know, everyday i walk around wearing 100-200 dollars worth of clothing... sean john jeans costing 50-75 dollars... roc-a-wear shirt 50-75 dollars

we a bunch of decadent bastards in the ghetto. we just waste money.

	19-05-2004 12:04									#12
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quote: What percentage of Americans are poor?

No one really. Capitalism works perfectly, and the only people who are "poor" are just too lazy to get a job.

	19-05-2004 12:08									#13
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as a 'poor' person, i agree, saint marcus

	19-05-2004 12:10									#14
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Define rich, and middle class first.

	19-05-2004 12:15									#15
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rich would be professionals who make over 100K a year... lawyers, doctors, etc... people in the suburbs...

middle class would be blue collar and lesser white collar (clerks, cashiers, service, secretaries, some lower accountants)... living in small towns, trailer parks, and cities

	19-05-2004 12:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus No one really. Capitalism works perfectly, and the only people who are "poor" are just too lazy to get a job.

that's what freinds beleive

I of course disagree strongly


Jon Miller

	19-05-2004 12:17									#17
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jon miller... from what little you have told me of your background, i know you know better... people make themselves poor. granted, being born into single parent homes to a drug addict will greatly hamper your chances of succeeding in life but we got public education, college scholarships, etc. ultimately, it is up to you and ultimately, you are the only one to blame for your economic failure

one dilemna are the reformed though... former criminals have a tough time getting a job and will likely stay in menial jobs (and stay poor) just because of their mistakes in the past. similiarily, a teenage mother will likely always be lower middle class no matter how hard she works.

	19-05-2004 13:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus No one really. Capitalism works perfectly, and the only people who are "poor" are just too lazy to get a job.

I disagree with this.

Many of the people born into poverty are stuck there. It was even worse in the past, but the industrialization and modernization of society along with universal public schooling has helped enlarge the middle class many times over.

What about people who are born to a single mom with 5 kids (who doesn't care what they do or what trouble they get into or whether or not they go to school) in a run-down apartment in a bad neighborhood with really crappy schools? For them the opportunity to aspire to the middle class simply doesn't exist. There's no one or reason to motivate them to do well in a failing school. With no money and no prior education the hopes for a middle-class job or college are down the drain.

	19-05-2004 13:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer people make themselves poor. granted, being born into single parent homes to a drug addict will greatly hamper your chances of succeeding in life but we got public education, college scholarships, etc. ultimately, it is up to you and ultimately, you are the only one to blame for your economic failure

In many areas having public school doesn't mean a thing. With poor schools and no motivation kids won't automatically do the right thing. That's just how kids are. If no one is forcing them to go to school or teaching them right from wrong then why should they do the right thing?

If it were true that lazy people were the only ones who were poor then you'd see an equal % of people from every class who ended up in each segment of society - an equal number in the upper echelon, an equal number in the middle class and an equal number in poverty. But you don't. Because the system sucks people in and doesn't let them go. It takes a very strong-willed and often lucky person to pull themselves out of the lower class into the rest of what we consider "society."

	19-05-2004 13:40									#20
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quote: If it were true that lazy people were the only ones who were poor then you'd see an equal % of people from every class who ended up in each segment of society - an equal number in the upper echelon, an equal number in the middle class and an equal number in poverty. But you don't.

You are right that desire plays a big role, but so do examples. You can have an ardent desire to work but if your mom and dad are poor, why would you aspire to be a lawyer or a doctor?

But if your father is a doctor, or a lawyer, then you will have a much greater chance of aspiring to the same goal.

	19-05-2004 14:00									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You are right that desire plays a big role, but so do examples. You can have an ardent desire to work but if your mom and dad are poor, why would you aspire to be a lawyer or a doctor? But if your father is a doctor, or a lawyer, then you will have a much greater chance of aspiring to the same goal.

Which basically furthers my claim that your situation helps determine where you're going rather than some innate property in people who end up poor.

If you have mom and dad as a doctor and a lawyer, naturally the desire to aspire to those positions will be passed down through the standards and rules they set for you. I'm willing to bet if you have a lawyer for a father and a doctor for a mother they will care more about how you perform in school and life than a deadbeat heroin addict mother who has 5 kids. And that will influence what direction you are pushed into.

The point is that your environment influences both the psychology and the opportunities for someone, whether they be poor or well-to-do. Like you said, if you have a role model and a goal to seek then that will help influence your psychology and push you to achieve more.

	19-05-2004 14:09									#22
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Oh I agree fully.

I just don't think that it's negative that the sons and daughters of lawyers become lawyers themselves. It's not enough to just educate the kids, you would need a mentor who's willing to show the child a completely different world to what they may have seen before.

I've always thought it very true, that people are not afraid so much of failure, but of success. We are carefully couched not to push to avoid making others feel bad, or to avoid standing out ourselves. It's much more comfortable to stay right where you are.

	19-05-2004 14:23									#23
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I'm glad you agree.

I feel that claiming the poor are poor because they're lazy is not only false, but racist in a way. It's basically saying that the reason there is a greater proportion of Mexicans and African-Americans who are poor or turn to crime or otherwise underpriviledged is because they're lazier, less skilled and somehow inferior to whites.

	19-05-2004 14:47									#24
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50%, of course.

	19-05-2004 14:53									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus No one really. Capitalism works perfectly, and the only people who are "poor" are just too lazy to get a job.

I really do hope that this is a poor excuse for a troll.

	19-05-2004 14:58									#26
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Well, capitalism does work extremely well. For its intended purpose.

	19-05-2004 14:58									#27
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Ask anyone and they will tell you that they are "middle-class". The American society revolves around the myth that most families are "middle class" (I've said this in earlier threads). Our society is geared toward "being rich, or middle class" and those who are relatively worse off than others will strive to attain the image that they are indeed "middle class"....which means buying sh** that they don't need.

To say that "the poor deserve to be poor because they are lazy" is just stereotypical nonsense that is in the same league as being an ignorant racist....only it's classist.

Elitism in any form is just ignorance and oppression wrapped up in a nice little package.

	19-05-2004 15:13									#28
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We must form a society Comrade Marx would be proud of! Unite my brothers!

	19-05-2004 15:22									#29
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After doing some comparative googling, I found out that the precentage of people with an income below $11 (PPP) is 13,6 % in the US. Worse than the Scandinavian countries (Norway; 4,3 %), Benelux, France (9,9 %) and Germany (7,3 %) but better than the UK with 15,7 %.

	19-05-2004 15:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You are right that desire plays a big role, but so do examples. You can have an ardent desire to work but if your mom and dad are poor, why would you aspire to be a lawyer or a doctor? But if your father is a doctor, or a lawyer, then you will have a much greater chance of aspiring to the same goal.

I agree with the general thrust of your argument, but it isn't quite as simple as that. Both of my parents grew up poor on farms to parents who only had high school educations (on my dad's side) or grade school educations (on my mom's side). Yet my parents both aspired to more than they grew up with, and my father became a professor and my mother a physician.

My sister and I both attended college and ended up working in technical fields. We didn't feel the need to achieve the same level of material success as our parents, and indeed felt that it would be better to live fuller lives rather than be slaves to a profession. This was a direct reaction to being neglected as our parents absented themselves constantly in pursuit of the almighty dollar and their own egos.

The bottom line for all of us though is that we had the opportunity to live the lives that we envisioned for ourselves. (Ok so I don't have a dozen supermodels lounging around my pool like I hoped for when I was in high school, but still.)

Had my parents been crack addicts rather than work-a-holics the outcome for us might have been quite different. Even though they dropped the ball to some extent with their parenting they did manage to give us a good example of what can be accomplished if one wants something enough.