19-05-2004 16:03									#31
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I'm definitely not poor, but someone once said that most americans are a paycheckn away from being homeless or poor. I think that this is about right.
A lot of the cars, tv's, clothes, and etc are purchased on credit. Americans are highly in debt. Have one of the lowest amounts of savings. For a good portion of us losing our jobs would be devastating.

	19-05-2004 16:15									#32
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That's about right. Any American who works can easily have two TVs, a car, a stove, oven, microwave, computer, etc. But if they lose their job they're basically screwed.

	19-05-2004 18:24									#33
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A bigger problem is that with more single adult households, one has to work even harder to get the TV, car, nuke, etc. than when you have a two adult household or an extended family living under one roof.

Those eight Mexicans who buy a $250,000 house together are on to something. Imagine how well eight middle-class people, each making around 50k a year, could live that way.

	19-05-2004 18:35									#34
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quote: middle class would be blue collar and lesser white collar (clerks, cashiers, service, secretaries, some lower accountants)... living in small towns, trailer parks, and cities

Middle class trailer parks .

	19-05-2004 18:35									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley A bigger problem is that with more single adult households, one has to work even harder to get the TV, car, nuke, etc. than when you have a two adult household or an extended family living under one roof.

Your private households have nukes? One can argue about the right to possess a gun or not, but that seems to be a bit overdone, no?

	19-05-2004 18:40									#36
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You didnt know that Ralph? Yes, every american home above 3 bedrooms has its own nuclear generator that can be turned into a nuke using a screwdiver and few small adjustments.

	19-05-2004 18:57									#37
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Only if they watch enough McGiver reruns.

	19-05-2004 18:57									#38
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Of course.

	19-05-2004 22:57									#39
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Those who think the poor in America are better off than most o the rest of the world have no idea what real American poverty is like. There are parts of the Unites States where people live like they live in the Third World.

	19-05-2004 23:01									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Those who think the poor in America are better off than most o the rest of the world have no idea what real American poverty is like. There are parts of the Unites States where people live like they live in the Third World.

Yes, but once you become that poor, you cease to be an American.

	20-05-2004 00:53									#41
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Imran:

middle class trailer parks? anyone with a ****ing full-time job is middle class. excluding homeless people, nearly everyone in the city of Philly is middle class...


and i dont understand the leftist position here... so what if you were born into a shitty family? it is still up to you whether you succeed or not. there's still a public education system and there's still caring people out there who will help you out.

Frankly, I think living in the ghetto is a motivator because everyday you see what you dont want to become. the problem is, some people give up and become addicts or thieves and other people actually want to succeed but they do it the wrong way (ie- sell drugs). still, people generally know education is key and there are people out there who try to make sure as many people as possible rise up... there's organizations out there (such as Amer-I-Can)

so i contend that the child born into poverty has more motivation to work hard and succeed than someone born into a wealthy family...

	20-05-2004 00:57									#42
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Certainly far far fewer americans live in total abject poverty, as in many other areas, but just as with wealth, poverty is relative due to differeing costs of living.

The problem is that the US, in general, has higher rates of poverty than the other rich states, as oppose dto comparisons with somethird world state.

	20-05-2004 00:58									#43
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When I was growing up I did'nt see many people make it out of the ghetto. I don't have statistics in front of me but I dare say it's worse now due to the rap music that promotes self oppression through the drug selling iced out gangsta ***** nigga for life mentality it promotes.

	20-05-2004 01:01									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Certainly far far fewer americans live in total abject poverty, as in many other areas, but just as with wealth, poverty is relative due to differeing costs of living. The problem is that the US, in general, has higher rates of poverty than the other rich states, as oppose dto comparisons with somethird world state.

[jk]

Freakin poor immigrants bringin our ratio down

[/jk]

	20-05-2004 01:03									#45
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I am sure they do to a small extent-though the fact is a immigration has gone up, the rates have gone down, until the latest economic downturn.

	20-05-2004 01:08									#46
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Pax:

quote: When I was growing up I did'nt see many people make it out of the ghetto.

from the wording of this, can it be assuemd that you did live in the ghetto and you therefore, emerged from it. if so, you are enough proff that people rise out of the ghetto (which isnt real poverty to begin with). you were motivated and succeeded i'm assuming...

as for rap music... bah... there is an over-emphasis on drug dealing but not on drug using... thats the difference between rappers and rockers... rappers sell drugs, rockers use them.

i'd much rather have someone be a drug dealer than an addict cause at least a dealer is trying to succeed albeit through the wrong means. he has the goal of making money and frankly, selling drugs takes intelligence.

I am bothered by some people though. some of the smartest people I know, whom i have intellectual conversations with, play gangster. their playing gets pretty real though as they sell drugs and tote weapons all the time and end up living in shelters. i am sure the gangster culture that a lot of rap promotes has made playing gangster cool. that is bothersome.

still, as your own signature shows, there are very popular, non-gangster rappers out there... in the past couple years, the talib kweli/common/jurassic 5/kanye west kind of nerd rapper, if you will, has become extremely popular... and then you got the schizophrenic, 2pac-like gangster rappers like Beanie Sigel and Freeway who bemoan how they hustle from the bottom just to make it to the bottom. but this is all another topic.

	20-05-2004 01:13									#47
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Trip - I really hope you realize that Saint Marcus was being sarcastic. What are you doing in OT, anyway? Is this the manifestation of extreme boredom + free time?

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 20-05-2004 at 01:39

	20-05-2004 01:20									#48
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The thing about poverty in the U.S. is that the absolute numbers of impoverished seem shocking, even though the percentage is low. A 12% poverty rate is about 35 million people, after all. You don't have to go far in the US to find those 35 million people, either.

	20-05-2004 01:25									#49
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Different goups have different rates, too.

From my poverty class a decade ago, 52% of those in poverty are white. That's about 9% of white people. About 33% of Black people, however, live under the poverty level. Now, these are ten-year old figures, but I doubt they've changed significantly since.

	20-05-2004 01:26									#50
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poverty class?

once again, a leftist shows his white tower intellectualism...

	20-05-2004 01:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Trip - I really hope you realize that Saint Marcus was being sarcastic. What are you doing in OT, anyway? Is this the manifestation of extreme boredom + free time? -Arrian

Troll or not, some people believe that.

I do wander by the OT from time to time and post in topics that interest me (which don't come around very often though ).

	20-05-2004 01:49									#52
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Albert Speer:

What you're saying confuses me, since you're basically saying that blacks are inferior to whites...

If everyone has an equal opportunity to rise out of their situation then why is it that more black people end up in gangs, committing crimes, going to jail, etc?

As I said a long long time ago, if it's solely up to the person to rise out of their situation then you should see an equal proportion of each race in the ultra-wealthy, an equal number in the "middle class" and an equal number in poverty. But that's not the case. Which means according to your argument those who don't fit that mold (blacks, Mexicans, etc.) are somehow inferior.

	20-05-2004 01:52									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer poverty class? once again, a leftist shows his white tower intellectualism...

Yes, the Economics of Poverty, taught by a right-leaning professor. You'd be surprised at the things you can actually learn in school. Things that most people wouldn't figure out by goin' to hip hop shows or watching tv.

* The majority of people under the poverty limit are white.
* The majority are in two parent families.
* Only about 13% of those on welfare were eligible to work (weren't disabled, sole care provider for children, etc.).

But go ahead and continue your anti-intellectualism. You're in good company with the KKK and other American Know-Nothingists.

	20-05-2004 02:05									#54
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Trip, I'm just trying to help, man. You don't seem to know what you've wandered into. Have you encountered Herr Speer before? I don't think so, because if you had you wouldn't be confused, you would be chuckling (or sobbing in despair, or just having no reaction whatsoever, whichever floats your boat).

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 02:05									#55
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Trip:

quote: What you're saying confuses me, since you're basically saying that blacks are inferior to whites...

you must be fulfilling your name and tripping

quote: If everyone has an equal opportunity to rise out of their situation then why is it that more black people end up in gangs, committing crimes, going to jail, etc?

let's play jackass and i'll call you racist for saying black people end up in gangs, etc.

but i wont... i didnt say anything about equal oppurtunity between classes. i did repeatedly say that it is tougher for you to be born poor than be born rich but, as the existentialists would say, your existance preceeds your essence... you determine your own destiny.

yes it's harder for someone who was born into a poor family than somone the child of a CEO but the poor man can still succeed. he may have to work harder but oppurtunity exists, especially with organizations like Amer-I-Can helping people out and there being public schools and college scholarships.

the arguement that someone born into poverty will refuse to succeed is also bullshit as, in fact, i contend that someone born into poverty will have much more reason to, and be more motivated to, succeed than someone richer.

quote: As I said a long long time ago, if it's solely up to the person to rise out of their situation then you should see an equal proportion of each race in the ultra-wealthy, an equal number in the "middle class" and an equal number in poverty. But that's not the case. Which means according to your argument those who don't fit that mold (blacks, Mexicans, etc.) are somehow inferior.

huh? perchance mexican immigrants coming here dirt poor and black people having been enslaved has something to do with this...


chegitz, i'm sure, what with your education, you are well versed in the Russian revolution... forgive me if i am wrong, but didn't the masses become quite disillusioned with the intellectual bolshevik leadership and began revolting against it (the 1921 Kronshtadt revolt)? as an intellectual, aren't you the enemy of the proletariat?

	20-05-2004 02:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer chegitz, i'm sure, what with your education, you are well versed in the Russian revolution... forgive me if i am wrong, but didn't the masses become quite disillusioned with the intellectual bolshevik leadership and began revolting against it (the 1921 Kronshtadt revolt)? as an intellectual, aren't you the enemy of the proletariat?

Nice try, but I'm not going to engage in a thread-jack. If you're truly interested, look-up Kronstadt, by Paul Averitch, an anarchist and no friend to the Bolsheviks. The situation was actually a lot more complex than what you'd like to pretend.

	20-05-2004 02:12									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Trip, I'm just trying to help, man. You don't seem to know what you've wandered into. Have you encountered Herr Speer before? I don't think so, because if you had you wouldn't be confused, you would be chuckling (or sobbing in despair, or just having no reaction whatsoever, whichever floats your boat). -Arrian

I've been watching the OT for the past couple years, trust me, I know all the personalities.

	20-05-2004 02:15									#58
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A lurker?

	20-05-2004 02:16									#59
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Active as all hell in the CivIII forums, which is how I know him, but apparently an OT lurker.

Anyway, now that I know he was just playing dumb, I'll leave him be to have his kicks.

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 02:21									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer but i wont... i didnt say anything about equal oppurtunity between classes. i did repeatedly say that it is tougher for you to be born poor than be born rich but, as the existentialists would say, your existance preceeds your essence... you determine your own destiny. yes it's harder for someone who was born into a poor family than somone the child of a CEO but the poor man can still succeed. he may have to work harder but oppurtunity exists, especially with organizations like Amer-I-Can helping people out and there being public schools and college scholarships. the arguement that someone born into poverty will refuse to succeed is also bullshit as, in fact, i contend that someone born into poverty will have much more reason to, and be more motivated to, succeed than someone richer.

So you don't think that children of people who are poorer are conditioned to seek less in life than those who have successful and wealthy parents? You don't think that there's any impact of having a mother who's a doctor and a father who's a lawyer pushing you to succeed as opposed to a single mother heroin addict?

It's proven that trauma of many sorts can affect a child growing up, making them depressed and suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. You don't think that this might have an effect on a child's goals growing up? Being conditioned not to care, not to think that school matters, not to think that they have a chance at college. It's a psychological illness, not a condition of lazy people.

Children need guidance to go down the correct path in life. They won't find it on their own, and when they're surrounded by bad influences such as drugs, gangs, etc. that helps shape them as they grow up.

Yes, if someone could possibly completely ignore all of that then they would have an equal "motivation factor." But the fact is that a child's upbrining will affect them for life, be it a good one or a bad one or anything in between.

quote: huh? perchance mexican immigrants coming here dirt poor and black people having been enslaved has something to do with this...

But there's public education and college scholarships and Amer-I-Can, remember? The motivated (who should completely ignore the abysmal upbringing they have) ought to be able to become CEOs and computer engineers like everyone else, slavery or no slavery! Right?

You have to admit one way or the other - either a person's upbringing and original conditions have an impact on their potential success in life or it doesn't. You can't simply add in arguments like poor immigrants or slavery because you immediately concede that the situation does have an impact.