20-05-2004 16:42									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich And what exactly should our pilots do when they have gunshots coming towards them?

Looking before shooting helps.

	20-05-2004 16:53									#62
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quote: Until that accusation has some proof behind it, you rely upon the PA for sources for the amount of killed and injured who are simply famous for their accuracy for, among other things, the number of civilians killed (sorry, "massacred") by Israeli soldiers. Otherwise what your complaint amounts to is "people are being killed in war! Shock!"

Bleh - attack the sources if you can't defend the principles. The honey that sweetens every dictatorship

Anyway - my point is not that people are being killed in war. People are being killed in peacetime - non combatants - and the world stands by and does nothing. Why? Because its Arabs that are doing the dying?

-Jam

	20-05-2004 16:57									#63
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My sympathy for anyone who gets bombs dropped on them because they were shooting is limited.

Bush's Israel/Palestine policy is a series of shots from the hip. He doesn't have the attention span to consistently support Sharon.

	20-05-2004 17:06									#64
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He doesn't have the attention span to brush his teeth

-Jam

	20-05-2004 17:15									#65
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quote: People are being killed in peacetime - non combatants - and the world stands by and does nothing. Why? Because its Arabs that are doing the dying?

The world isn't exactly up in arms about all the dead Israelis, either...

	20-05-2004 17:20									#66
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SSDD (the resolution). *yawn*

Re: bombing a wedding, well, it sucks and all, but honestly, if you fire assault rifles (AK-47) in the air, and somebody drops a bomb on you, I'm not so sure you have much to ***** about. Seriously. First off, what goes up must come down, and AFAIK bullets fired at random into the air often come down on other people. Does anyone cry for them? I'm genuinely sorry for the people who were killed or wounded by the bombs.

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 17:22									#67
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Did everyone miss the article I posted that questions whether this was a wedding at all? Or are ya'll just ignoring it?

	20-05-2004 17:24									#68
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I chose to ignore it for the purposes of my post. If it comes out it wasn't a wedding, and instead we were bombing insurgents, hurray, I guess. But I'm skeptical of the military's claims. Of course they thought they were shooting at bad guys. They thought that when the bombed the one in Afganistan too.

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 17:26									#69
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1. The iraqi's are permitted to have guns so if it's their custom to use these weapons in wedding celabrations in Iraq and not in New York, then we have to respect their customs. Next thing we'll be wanting them to speak english and get baptized.
2. No matter what the political reasons, the U.S. not vetoing the resolution is a step in the right direction.

	20-05-2004 17:27									#70
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If it turns out was a legitimate target, well, that's not gonna increase my sympathy for those hit.

	20-05-2004 17:30									#71
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quote: The world isn't exactly up in arms about all the dead Israelis, either...

Nope. Outside of the US they don't get a lot of sympathy. They are the invaders, after all. They are the ones with tanks and APCs vs kids throwing stones and suicide bombers. They are the democracy that elected Sharon.

-Jam

	20-05-2004 17:31									#72
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quote: 1. The iraqi's are permitted to have guns so if it's their custom to use these weapons in wedding celabrations in Iraq and not in New York, then we have to respect their customs. Next thing we'll be wanting them to speak english and get baptized.

And I'm allowed to run around in dark brown clothes in the woods during elk hunt season. Doesn't change the fact I'm voluntarily subjecting myself to an increased risk of getting shot at.

	20-05-2004 17:32									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Why? Because its Arabs that are doing the dying? -Jam

Exactly. No one really cares about Palestinians. Not even Arabs.

	20-05-2004 17:35									#74
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quote: Nope. Outside of the US they don't get a lot of sympathy. They are the invaders, after all.

Yeah, those teenagers in the club in Haifa are horrible invaders. So are those people at their relatives bar mitzvah. Or those people taking the bus to work. Or ...

	20-05-2004 17:37									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Nope. Outside of the US they don't get a lot of sympathy. They are the invaders, after all. They are the ones with tanks and APCs vs kids throwing stones and suicide bombers. They are the democracy that elected Sharon. -Jam

That's one way to look at it. The other is that Israel was created by the U.N., for better or for worse, and was then attacked, won, and has been fighting on and off with the Arabs ever since.

I was pro-palestinian in the 80s, when I saw those TV shots of Palestinian kids throwing rocks and being shot at with rubber bullets. My stance changed to neutral when the standard resistence method became blowing up as many civilians as possible.

Neither side has much of a claim for the moral highground here. And Sharon may be a bastard, but allegedly the Pals elected Arafat. That's better in some way?

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 17:38									#76
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They voted for Sharon. Democracy at work. Majority rule.

Or blame the parents and grandparents that emigrated to Palestine in the 50's and 60's

-Jam

	20-05-2004 17:40									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski They voted for Sharon. Democracy at work. Majority rule. Or blame the parents and grandparents that emigrated to Palestine in the 50's and 60's -Jam

Uh-huh. Just like every American voted for the Lord Protector Bush, right? So all those people in the WTC deserved it because "they all voted for Bush." Right?

I find it amusing that someone criticising Israeli tactics is arguing for collective guilt.

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 17:44									#78
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quote: I chose to ignore it for the purposes of my post. If it comes out it wasn't a wedding, and instead we were bombing insurgents, hurray, I guess. But I'm skeptical of the military's claims. Of course they thought they were shooting at bad guys. They thought that when the bombed the one in Afganistan too.

This is what piqued my interest...

quote: "Coalition forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, 2 million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satcom radio," the statement said.

Hardly seems like a wedding, if this is true.

	20-05-2004 17:44									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Nope. Outside of the US they don't get a lot of sympathy. They are the invaders, after all. They are the ones with tanks and APCs vs kids throwing stones and suicide bombers. They are the democracy that elected Sharon. -Jam

Riiiiiiiiiiiight -- cause we know that suicide bombers are no big deal.

	20-05-2004 19:07									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist And I'm allowed to run around in dark brown clothes in the woods during elk hunt season. Doesn't change the fact I'm voluntarily subjecting myself to an increased risk of getting shot at.

Well, if anyone decides to blow you, your family and your friends up as a result of your using a legally-owned gun, then I'll be quite angry about it even if you won't.

Also: if the people killed were militia, then I have no complaints.

	20-05-2004 19:08									#81
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quote: Well, if anyone decides to blow you

They've got issues beyond a lawsuit...

-Arrian

	21-05-2004 04:44									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Looking before shooting helps.

Even if they think they're in a combat situation?

I really have no sympathy for idiots who do things like this.

	21-05-2004 04:46									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus 1. The iraqi's are permitted to have guns so if it's their custom to use these weapons in wedding celabrations in Iraq and not in New York, then we have to respect their customs. Next thing we'll be wanting them to speak english and get baptized.

Why should we "respect" their customs wrt firearms?

	21-05-2004 04:57									#84
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quote: Riiiiiiiiiiiight -- cause we know that suicide bombers are no big deal.

If you say so.

I think its a pretty big deal when someone is so desperate and determined that they will give their own life willingly for their patriotism, to stand against the invader and take as many of the bastards down with them as they can.

You say "But the suicide bombers are targeting civillians."
I say "The suicide bombers are civillians."

-Jam

	21-05-2004 05:23									#85
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quote: I think its a pretty big deal when someone is so desperate and determined that they will give their own life willingly for their patriotism, to stand against the invader and take as many of the bastards down with them as they can.

Except for the little fact that they don't.

I suppose you missed the whole thing about the 72 virgins?

quote: You say "But the suicide bombers are targeting civillians." I say "The suicide bombers are civillians."

If by "civilian" you mean "soldier", then yes, you are correct!

	21-05-2004 05:30									#86
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You don't actually believe that Fox News crap that these guys blow themselves up because of some paradise with 72 virgins?

And no, by civillian I mean civillian. That's why I typed the word civillian.

When you're older you'll understand the difference.

-Jam

	21-05-2004 05:31									#87
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quote: You don't actually believe that Fox News crap that these guys blow themselves up because of some paradise with 72 virgins?

Everyone @ Jamski

There's this little thing called the "Koran"...

quote: When you're older you'll understand the difference.

almost as good as Sava's "critical thinking" quote

	21-05-2004 05:35									#88
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Yeah, there's this little thing called the Bible that says a load of crap too, but no one does what it says in there. What was your point?

Holy sh*t. You really do believe these guys are blowing themselves up for religious reasons, don't you?

They just want their country back, I think you'll find. And against an army with tanks and APCs and machine guns and helicopters...

...Well, suicide bombs and rocks is about all they have left to fight with.

-Jam

	21-05-2004 05:46									#89
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quote: You really do believe these guys are blowing themselves up for religious reasons, don't you?

They sure think so.

	21-05-2004 07:09									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You say "But the suicide bombers are targeting civillians." I say "The suicide bombers are civillians." -Jam

DUH -- so does this mean that any type of criminal -- be it a thief, murderer, or rapist cannot be subjected to any necessary physical/violent force in order to subdue the criminal because he/she is a civilian??