21-05-2004 07:32									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Why should we "respect" their customs wrt firearms?

1. Because it's their country.
2. Because it's their country.
3. Because the U.S. allowed them to have firearms.
4. Did I mention it's their country.

	21-05-2004 09:23									#92
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I missed the part where you explained why we need to respect their customs wrt firearms.

(btw, we didn't "allow" them to have firearms... we just haven't taken them away)

	21-05-2004 10:02									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You don't actually believe that Fox News crap that these guys blow themselves up because of some paradise with 72 virgins? And no, by civillian I mean civillian. That's why I typed the word civillian. When you're older you'll understand the difference. -Jam

I'm 37. I understand the difference.

Suicide bombers are not civilians, anymore than WWII Japanese Kamakazies are.

	21-05-2004 13:47									#94
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The current Israeli leadership seems very hard nosed.

Reflecting Israeli attitudes generally if the young Israelis who post here are any guide.

So I doubt that the US abstension will give them pause.

Sad to say it is quite certain they will ignore the 14-0 vote by the other members of the security council.

There can be nothing wrong with the rest of the world trying to influence the Israelis and the arabs encouraging them to find ways to get along. So I am in favour of such resolutions.

But it does also seem to me that the US and others (including the UK) - but particularly the US - should now make a conscious effort to withdraw from all attempts to influence the way the conflict plays out.

Arabs believe that US support buttresses Israel. And they may well be right.

If the US ended all and any aid to Israel - military and otherwise - and ceased to employ political influence in her favour then I rather think one source of tension would be removed.

It has been noticeable for quite some years now that the arab states neighbouring Israel do not themselves cause trouble. They all recognised Israel's right to exist some time ago and their actions (or inactions) seem to show that they are genuine in this. I do not believe that a withdrawal from this particular arena by the US would lead Syria and others to resile from their stance.

And even if I am wrong the balance of military power has not changed. Perhaps it would over time if the US did not prop up the Israelis but that would take quite a while.

What would happen, I think, is that the present Israeli government, and all those in Israel who seem intent on following the most aggressive route open to them, would have to think very hard about what they are doing.

Conceivably their confidance would be sufficiently shaken that they would be willing to take note of the hatreds which their hard nosed lines create and continue.

It is worth trying.

The disaffection felt by a lot of arabs with their own governments is a very disruptive thing in the world right now. Diplomats might be well advised to consider what, if anything, others can properly do to lessen or remove it. And this does seem to me to be one thing. And a very proper one too, if it subsequently allows the US to vote on things like this resolution in accordance with the nation's conscience rather than according to the dictates of a (failed) real politick.

	21-05-2004 14:24									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Even if they think they're in a combat situation?

How could you tell it's a combat situation before you look?

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich I really have no sympathy for idiots who do things like this.

You mean the US soldiers? I concur.

	21-05-2004 14:25									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Did everyone miss the article I posted that questions whether this was a wedding at all? Or are ya'll just ignoring it?

Ignoring it, because they said the same thing wrt to the incident in Afghanistan.

	21-05-2004 14:29									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich I missed the part where you explained why we need to respect their customs wrt firearms.

Translation: you don't care what they think.

This is the sort of idiocy that leads to problems the US is facing around the globe.

	21-05-2004 14:58									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Yeah, there's this little thing called the Bible that says a load of crap too, but no one does what it says in there. What was your point? Holy sh*t. You really do believe these guys are blowing themselves up for religious reasons, don't you? They just want their country back -Jam

In order to have a country back, you must first have a country.

	21-05-2004 15:53									#99
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/21/i...ast/21IRAQ.html

Iraqi outrage continued Thursday over the American missile strike on the desert camp in the country's western desert region.

Amid funerals for the victims in Baghdad and in Ramadi, the nearest city to the strike, families angrily denied that the gathering had been anything other than a wedding.

The Associated Press quoted a man identifying himself as Madhi Nawaf, a shepherd, as saying that his daughter and at least one grandchild had been killed.

"Where are the foreign fighters they claim were hiding there?" he said. "Everything they said is a lie."

Among the dead, according to several reports, was a popular wedding singer who lived in Baghdad.

But at a time of heightened sensitivity in Iraq over American military actions, General Kimmitt said this did not appear to be the case in the attack on Wednesday. The raid was conducted, he said, on the strength of intelligence on a route, which he called a "rat line," suspected of being used by foreign fighters entering Iraq.

"This operation was not something that just fell out of the sky," he told reporters. "We had significant intelligence."

In addition to finding weapons, troops at the site, near the village of Makr al-Deeb near the Syrian border, said they had also found Syrian currency, along with about $1,000 worth of Iraqi dinar.

Maj. Gen. James Mattis, the commander of the First Marine Division responsible for the remote stretch of desert where the strike was carried out, asked, "How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilization?"

At a news conference in Falluja, west of Baghdad, he said that two dozen men of military age were among those killed.

	21-05-2004 16:20									#100
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Jamski - tell me , how much time have you spent researching fundamentalist Islam? How much time have you spent researching terrorist movements? How much time have you spent researching Palestinian leadership or society?

my guess is none. You probably read an article or two on your favourite newspaper.

And yet you speak with such certainty about the motives behind Jihad, whether suicide bombers are religious or not, what do they want to achieve and so on.

It sounds to me like you're bullshitting.

	21-05-2004 16:23									#101
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I would further like to note, that Arab news sources have a tendency to fake newspieces. Just like funerals were faked around Jenin, or stories are being faked in Iraq.

I've seen footage of how AlJazeera fake a story about a supposed "kid fighter" in Iraq, whose whole family was killed by the Americans, and he grabs an AK47, a truck and goes to avenge his family.

The moment the AlJazeera camera was turned off, people started screaming for the boy to stop driving the truck, and the truck was returned to its true owners.

	21-05-2004 16:50									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov my guess is none. You probably read an article or two on your favourite newspaper.

And it's probably something like The Age

Europeans are ignorant.

	21-05-2004 17:49									#103
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As a matter of interest, Sirotnikov, what do you make of the fact that 14 of the 15 nations making up the security council voted in favour of a resolution critical of Israel's actions in the Gaza strip?

And what will be made of it in Israel more widely?

Will it be noticed at all?

	21-05-2004 18:07									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar If US pulls support for Israel, I bet Israel would disappear within the week.

Unlikely. Though there would be alot more dead Arabs if the Arabs tried to "finish off" an Israel which didn't have US backing.

At the end of the day the Israelis still have nukes and the Arabs don't.

	21-05-2004 18:12									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Yeah, there's this little thing called the Bible that says a load of crap too, but no one does what it says in there. What was your point?

Judging by this quote I'd bet you have never spent any meaningful amount of time in an Arab country. These people take their religion VERY seriously. We haven't seen similiar levels of blind belief and devotion in the west since the middle ages.

It also doesn't help that the education level is so abysmally low in the Arab world. Even the "educated" people all to often have simply attended religious indoctrination camps. There is a real darth of critical thinking skills here.

	21-05-2004 18:16									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Translation: you don't care what they think. This is the sort of idiocy that leads to problems the US is facing around the globe.

In his defence it takes a special kind of idiot to go around brandishing automatic rifles in front of an occupying army while in a war zone. As a side point it is illegal under Iraqi law to fire your weapons except in self defense; this law was specifically passed to stop "celebritory fire". Every major holiday in this part of the world ends with lots of people being shot when the bullets fall back to earth.

	21-05-2004 18:21									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: "Coalition forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, 2 million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satcom radio," the statement said. Hardly seems like a wedding, if this is true.

1. Numerous weapons- well, if there was shooting into the air, what the hell were they shooting with? Spitballs?

2. Money-at a wedding party...well, of course you NEVER get money at a wedding party. I am sure the registry at bloomingdales Baghdad had all the necessary gifts.

3. Foreign Passports- cause we all know, a wedding on the Iraq-Syrian border has no chance to include any foreigners- we all know Arabs never have friends or families in other coutries, and of course even if they did, these people are unlikely to have passports.

4. Satcom radio- the only one I don't have a rather obvious reason for it being there.

	21-05-2004 18:30									#108
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It is difficult to make international phone calls in Iraq though sat-phones are very rare here.

	21-05-2004 18:42									#109
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quote: 1. Numerous weapons- well, if there was shooting into the air, what the hell were they shooting with? Spitballs? 2. Money-at a wedding party...well, of course you NEVER get money at a wedding party. I am sure the registry at bloomingdales Baghdad had all the necessary gifts. 3. Foreign Passports- cause we all know, a wedding on the Iraq-Syrian border has no chance to include any foreigners- we all know Arabs never have friends or families in other coutries, and of course even if they did, these people are unlikely to have passports. 4. Satcom radio- the only one I don't have a rather obvious reason for it being there.

You don't find the presence of all four of these things in a remote area of the Iraq-Syria border that intelligence indicated to be a crossing point for foreign fighters to be the slightest bit suspicious? We all respect your "expertise" here on Poly, but I can't help but think you're being purposefully obtuse on this one...

	21-05-2004 18:46									#110
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I assume intelliegence went AFTER the attack- are you saying that people there can;'t have wedding parties?

Again, given the claim by the Iraqis, most of those things there make sense in the context of a wedding party- so I have no reason to believe either side yet.

	21-05-2004 18:48									#111
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I think the point is that all four of them are just circumstantial evidence, not proof that it certainly wasn't a wedding. Incidentally how much is 2 million dinar worth?

	21-05-2004 18:49									#112
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It very well may have been a wedding party but I continue to say 1)Firing in the Air was illegal under Iraqi law 2) That it is just insane to fire automatic weapons at/near soldiers while in a war zone.

	21-05-2004 18:50									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I think the point is that all four of them are just circumstantial evidence, not proof that it certainly wasn't a wedding. Incidentally how much is 2 million dinar worth?

There are about 1400 new Iraqi dinars per US dollar, however, the report said it was in both Iraqi and Syrian dinars. I don't know the Syrian exchange rate.

	21-05-2004 18:53									#114
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quote: I think the point is that all four of them are just circumstantial evidence, not proof that it certainly wasn't a wedding.

I never claimed that it was proof that this wasn't a wedding. Just saying that the jury is still out...

quote: Incidentally how much is 2 million dinar worth?

I think I remember reading that the Iraqi dinars were worth around $1000 on CNN.com, but don't quote me on that. I also don't know if they took the Syrian dinars into account when obtaining that figure...

	21-05-2004 19:11									#115
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quote: And a very proper one too, if it subsequently allows the US to vote on things like this resolution in accordance with the nation's conscience rather than according to the dictates of a (failed) real politick.

Americans probably would still take Israel's claims of self defense seriously. By moving from rock-throwing to hard core terrorism, the Palestinians lost much of their rhetorical legitimacy and power.

	21-05-2004 19:21									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I think I remember reading that the Iraqi dinars were worth around $1000 on CNN.com, but don't quote me on that. I also don't know if they took the Syrian dinars into account when obtaining that figure...

That would tally with Oerdin’s post. Makes it seem kinda fatuous that the article you posted referred to the 2 million dinar as if it was a major factor, doesn’t it?

The only thing that Is out of the ordinary that’s been found is the radio… the jury is indeed still out, and I sincerely doubt that a jury would convict the dead of being militia based upon the evidence.

	21-05-2004 19:22									#117
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If all 2 million were Iraqi dinars then it would be worth about $1500 or just over 1.5 years worth of wages for the average Iraqi.

	21-05-2004 19:30									#118
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And? Doesn't seem like much to me given there were probably hundreds of people there.

	21-05-2004 19:33									#119
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Where'd you get the idea that hundreds of people were there? It was out in the middle of nowhere.

	21-05-2004 19:36									#120
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Not that any of you will care, but...

quote: The Pentagon is considering the release of videotapes or a still photograph to bolster its contention that a target attacked Wednesday by the U.S. military in western Iraq was not a wedding party, officials said. Sources said that a photograph of the area before it was attacked by a U.S. warplane shows several buildings that look like warehouses in a remote desert location. According to a Pentagon official who has seen the photograph, it shows no evidence of any wedding celebration, such as the "wedding tent" mentioned by some Iraqis who told reporters they were guests. The site was attacked by a U.S. Air Force AC-130 gunship, and the Pentagon may release the video from the plane gun camera, according to the official. The Pentagon is not disputing that a number of innocent civilians -- including children -- may have been killed in the airstrike, but officials insist there was solid intelligence that the site was being used by "foreign fighters" and was not an innocent gathering of wedding celebrants.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

The military seems pretty confident that this wasn't a wedding party...