21-05-2004 19:36									#121
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If 40 people died, are you saying we killed everyone? We know that at least a couple of Dozen died.

As for the middle of nowhere-so? People can travel to the middle of nowhere-you yourself said it was popular with smugglers-obviously people know how to get there.

	21-05-2004 19:38									#122
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quote: you yourself said it was popular with smugglers

No, I didn't...

	21-05-2004 19:43									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Where'd you get the idea that hundreds of people were there? It was out in the middle of nowhere.

If someone's going to have a wedding in the middle of nowhere, guests will travel out to it. What a concept. In addition, given that peopkle are still around to comment on what they saw and bury their friends and family, it is likely that the bombs only killed a proportion of the people present.

	21-05-2004 19:46									#124
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quote: If someone's going to have a wedding in the middle of nowhere, guests will travel out to it. What a concept. In addition, given that peopkle are still around to comment on what they saw and bury their friends and family, it is likely that the bombs only killed a proportion of the people present.

None of this, in any way, backs up the unfounded assertion that there were "hundreds" of people present.

	21-05-2004 20:57									#125
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I'm all for waiting to the verdict is out on whether or not it was a wedding. If it was a wedding then it does not matter if only one person was slightly grazed. Would you want to be attacked by the U.S. on your wedding day. I would imagine the groom would have trouble getting it up after that.

	21-05-2004 21:01									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: If someone's going to have a wedding in the middle of nowhere, guests will travel out to it. What a concept. In addition, given that peopkle are still around to comment on what they saw and bury their friends and family, it is likely that the bombs only killed a proportion of the people present. None of this, in any way, backs up the unfounded assertion that there were "hundreds" of people present.

from article:

quote: Sources said that a photograph of the area before it was attacked by a U.S. warplane shows several buildings that look like warehouses in a remote desert location.

Could you place a few hundred people in several warehouses? Must be very small warehouses in this "middle of nowhere"

	21-05-2004 21:03									#127
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Hundreds or not, but a value of $1000 or 1500 sounds about right for collected wedding gifts.

	21-05-2004 21:09									#128
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quote: Could you place a few hundred people in several warehouses? Must be very small warehouses in this "middle of nowhere"

First of all, who the **** has a wedding in a warehouse? Or a wedding with several hundred guests distributed in several warehouses? Not to mention the fact that the witnesses claimed the wedding was under a tent, a tent that the military says doesn't appear in any photos of the area.

Secondly, are you really too stupid to realize that the phrase "remote desert location" in the quote you chose is pretty much the same thing as saying the "middle of nowhere"? And do you really think that the presence of some warehouses automatically precludes a place from being in the middle of nowhere?

quote: Hundreds or not, but a value of $1000 or 1500 sounds about right for collected wedding gifts.

People get the equivalent of one and a half years salary as a wedding gift in your country? In cash, no less? ****, I want to move there...

	21-05-2004 21:15									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten First of all, who the **** has a wedding in a warehouse? Or a wedding with several hundred guests distributed in several warehouses? Not to mention the fact that the witnesses claimed the wedding was under a tent, a tent that the military says doesn't appear in any photos of the area. Secondly, are you really too stupid to realize that the phrase "remote desert location" in the quote you chose is pretty much the same thing as saying the "middle of nowhere"? And do you really think that the presence of some warehouses automatically precludes a place from being in the middle of nowhere?

The whole of Iraq is in a remote desert location as far as I'm concerned. Who has a wedding on a yacht? Who has a wedding on a mountain? People have weddings wherever they see fit. let's wait until a neutral party proves or disproves the allegations before we start throwing insults around.
In the mean time check out the site with people who have turned their vehicles into Star Wars spaceships. Who the **** would do that?

	21-05-2004 21:24									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten People get the equivalent of one and a half years salary as a wedding gift in your country? In cash, no less?

If we assume not hundreds, but about 50 guests (which doesn't seem completely wrong), that would be about a ten day's salary from each. Unreasonable?

quote: ****, I want to move there...

Please, remain where you are.

	21-05-2004 21:32									#131
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quote: If we assume not hundreds, but about 50 guests (which doesn't seem completely wrong), that would be about a ten day's salary from each. Unreasonable?

Yes...

	21-05-2004 21:34									#132
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"Military" warehouses? Were on earth did you pull "military" out off? Certainly not your own article.

Maybe that money was a dowry-those are supposed to be BIG money.

	21-05-2004 21:36									#133
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quote: "Military" warehouses? Were on earth did you pull "military" out off?

I didn't. You're making up things I said again. Twice in one thread...

quote: Maybe that money was a dowry-those are supposed to be BIG money.

It's about time you came up with that. I was about to jump on you for missing the most obvious bullshit excuse you could come up with.

	21-05-2004 21:45									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: If we assume not hundreds, but about 50 guests (which doesn't seem completely wrong), that would be about a ten day's salary from each. Unreasonable? Yes...

How so?

A ten day's salary as average (close relatives give more, other guests less) is not the slightest bit unreasonable as gift for the start of a young family. As for it being cash, it should be useful, shouldn't it? You can either gift the stuff they need for a start directly, which takes the more organization the more the guests are, or else you could end up with 50 sets of cutlery. The other way is to agree to gift money. Not uncommon hereabouts, but of course I am not the mideast expert you are.

I don't say it was a wedding. Time will show. What I'm saying is, that the presence of the money isn't a prove that it wasn't a wedding.

	21-05-2004 21:48									#135
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And, of course, the money could be from ilegal smuggling deals going on in that area as well- unless you think tribes in Iraq would never EVER conduct business while celebrating a wedding-or would never smuggle..right.

	21-05-2004 21:49									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: "Military" warehouses? Were on earth did you pull "military" out off? I didn't. You're making up things I said again. Twice in one thread...

I smell the edit function

quote: It's about time you came up with that. I was about to jump on you for missing the most obvious bullshit excuse you could come up with.

And do you have an answer to it?

	21-05-2004 21:50									#137
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quote: How so?

Do you know how much money ten day's salary is? That's a little over 900 US dollars for me, at current exchange rates...

quote: I smell the edit function

Yes, yes, accuse someone of DanSing you when your own lack of reading comprehension is the problem...

	21-05-2004 21:54									#138
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re your

Yes

Any counter to the dowry explination?

Or simply smuggling deals going on?

	21-05-2004 21:57									#139
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I would reply to you, but why bother? You'll just accuse me of calling for the genocide of all Arabs or something and, when I point out that I said no such thing, you'll complain about me editing my posts...

	21-05-2004 21:59									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Do you know how much money ten day's salary is? That's a little over 900 US dollars for me, at current exchange rates...

Nice to hear you are reasonably well paid. But you are a citizen of a first world country, residing in another first world country. You can your bloated living standard (no offense, mine is just as bloated) not compare with the simpler standard these people have in their third world country. Who can live for $100 a month, can afford to gift ~30 of them. Not every month of course, but a wedding is not the 37th birthday of Mr. Nobody, and I would expect people to save a bit for it. Also. like GePap pointed out, people with low salaries tend to have other sources.

	21-05-2004 22:03									#141
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Wouldn't the fact that I make a comfortable salary in a first-world country make it more likely that I could afford to give ten day's worth of my salary as a wedding gift? How is it reasonable to assume that poor, third-world Iraqis can give that much of their income as a gift when I can't?

	21-05-2004 22:09									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten None of this, in any way, backs up the unfounded assertion that there were "hundreds" of people present.

It's not an assertion, it's a vague estimate. Please learn the difference. Do you really think that a wedding having lots of people at it is an unlikely occurrence? Personally I find it extremely unlikely that in a country that seems very community and family-based, where you can have 20 people from the same family living under the same roof, that there would be less than 100 people present a a wedding... hundreds though? Maybe, maybe not. But please keep sticking your fingers in your ears and dismissing absolutely any possibility that doesn't fit in with a terrorism-based explanation regarding the possible origins of finding $1000 in Iraq.

	21-05-2004 22:14									#143
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader As a matter of interest, Sirotnikov, what do you make of the fact that 14 of the 15 nations making up the security council voted in favour of a resolution critical of Israel's actions in the Gaza strip? And what will be made of it in Israel more widely? Will it be noticed at all?

I make of it, that the europeans have gone from one extreme (waging non stop bloody wars on each other) to the next (complete and total hippi attitude) as over compensation.

France just wants oil deals and is frankly a poor excuse for a permanent council member.

The arab countries are obviously anti-Israeli. As is Russia and China which are historically pro-Arab.

African countries are just glad they are not being criticised for their lack of democracy, civil rights abuses or what ever.

USA needs to show some discontent with Israel, while it uses exactly the same measures. It accidentally hit a wedding, but that's alright as it was based on intelligence, and the Iraqis are probably lying. As if Israeli strikes are not based on intelligence, and the palestinians have not lied about death figures or whether or not the people were militants.


Do you remember reading a thread on the OT about the massacare in southern sudan?
Did the UN talk about it?
DId it get anything over 10 seconds on CNN?

nope.

And that was about hundreds of thousands of people, who are ethnically cleansed by an Arab muslim country.


However, when the Palestinians are touched - nothing happens.


Two weeks ago, during a limited routine ground operation to destroy tunnels (just like poly tubbies wanted - "only target the militants. get in and out.") and IDF engineering APC was hit.

Its explosion resulted in 6 soldiers' body parts flying all over.

Did you know what the pals did? collected them, and demanded ransom or held on to it as trophies.

Do you know how much airtime this story had on CNN or BBC? none. "6 Israelis and 7 Pals die in Gaza clashes. And in other news...".

This was an Israeli choise however. In order to prevent the family members pain, they asked the foreign networks not to show videos of the body parts (some of them - like heads, are recognizable). So the networks just dropped the story alltogether.

Why was the security council never alerted to that?

	21-05-2004 22:15									#144
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quote: Do you really think that a wedding having lots of people at it is an unlikely occurrence?

At a collection of warehouses in bum-**** Egypt on the border of Syria and Iraq? At a location that the US military believed was a crossing point for foreign fighters infiltrating Iraq? A location where the U.S. military claims to have engaged insurgents and to have found weapons, large amounts of cash, foreign passports and a satcom radio? Yes, that strikes me as a very unlikely occurrence. I'm probably just being silly, though...

	21-05-2004 22:19									#145
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Probably, but this is just a guess and not an assertion.

	21-05-2004 22:20									#146
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Point taken...

	21-05-2004 22:31									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Wouldn't the fact that I make a comfortable salary in a first-world country make it more likely that I could afford to give ten day's worth of my salary as a wedding gift? How is it reasonable to assume that poor, third-world Iraqis can give that much of their income as a gift when I can't?

As I said, you have unproportionally higher expenses than people in the 3rd world. These people don't have to pay for cars, plane tickets, air conditioned appartments, computers, communications etc. You may get 27 times more than they get. But after all you pay all expenses, the remainder won't be 27 times of that what remains for them. Many of them live in their own hut. Do you? Many of them grow their own food to have it cheaper. Do you? Look, if I have a (poor) living for free, and (again poor) food too, I don't need the little money I get to secure my living and can afford to give a bit of it away. It's supposed to be a wedding, that's always special. Also, as stated, many of them smuggle or have similar unlawful incomes. Poverty does this.

	21-05-2004 23:35									#148
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quote: I'm 37. I understand the difference. Suicide bombers are not civilians, anymore than WWII Japanese Kamakazies are.

Kamakazis were serving soldiers in the Japanese Air Force != Civillians
Palestinian Suicide Bombers are bakers and farmers etc == Civillians

quote: Jamski - tell me , how much time have you spent researching fundamentalist Islam? How much time have you spent researching terrorist movements? How much time have you spent researching Palestinian leadership or society? my guess is none. You probably read an article or two on your favourite newspaper. And yet you speak with such certainty about the motives behind Jihad, whether suicide bombers are religious or not, what do they want to achieve and so on. It sounds to me like you're bullshitting.

In hours? Probably 2-300. The benefits of unemployment is lots of free time to read stuff that interests you.

-Jam

	22-05-2004 00:09									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How could you tell it's a combat situation before you look?

Usually, people shooting at you is a good indication...

	22-05-2004 00:24									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus The whole of Iraq is in a remote desert location as far as I'm concerned. Who has a wedding on a yacht? Who has a wedding on a mountain? People have weddings wherever they see fit.

Except in tradition-bound areas like the middle east, where weddings probably occur in whatever village is in the heart of your clan holdings.