20-05-2004 11:35									#1
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Embraced moral relativism? I don't mean all of course, but I'm seeing more and more of the pols and their media sycophants do the following:

1) Posit that the abuse was done by a handful - ~6-7 - of "bad apples".

2) Claim they don't condone what happened but constantly point to what happened to Mr Berg and other Americans as if a second wrong should be downplayed because of another, worse wrong.

First, they want the prosecution of these guards to end with only those guards and ignore the chain of command as if we are so stupid we can't figure out that these guards were acting on what their superiors wanted. In other words, it's Clayton Hartwig all over again, blame, if not frame, the grunts to cover the behinds of superiors.

I've heard Bill O'Reilly a number of times argue that "justifying" or dismissing bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior is an illogical argument, yet that is the argument being embraced by these people. At least Bill is trying to remain somewhat consistent on this but
what happened to the moral compass of all these other Repubs and conservatives? The liberal says, "look at this abuse"; and the conservative says, "look at what they did to Mr Berg".

Huh?

The abuse of prisoners occured before the murder of Mr Berg and he was murdered by Al Qaeda, not Iraqis in that prison. That's like "justifying" the torture of John Doe in a prison because of what Timothy McVeigh did in Okla City. That's the rationale used by the terrorists, that because some Americans have done bad things to Arabs in the Middle East, they have "justification" to fly planes into buildings and behead innocent people.

Oh Sh*t! More bad news...

An Iraqi wedding in Western Iraq was fired upon by a US helicopter looking for a building housing foreign fighters from Syria - don't know how many are dead but women and children are among the casualties.

	20-05-2004 11:53									#2
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Politics

	20-05-2004 12:03									#3
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the problem with other conservatives is they are Bush fanboys.

They think a republican in power can do no wrong.

Some people are incapable of thinking for themselves. And yes, this includes Sean Hannity.

	20-05-2004 22:09									#4
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I don't recall the last time i saw sean hannity actually thinking.

whenever I listen to his radio show, which is a few hours whenever my mother has control of it in the car while i'm home, all i hear are phone calls which pat him on the back thanking him for what a great job he's doing showing how evil the liberals are.

	20-05-2004 22:25									#5
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I'm to lazy to look up the English quote, but re: bad apples:

quote: You know the tree by its fruit.

	20-05-2004 22:27									#6
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quote: An Iraqi wedding in Western Iraq was fired upon by a US helicopter looking for a building housing foreign fighters from Syria - don't know how many are dead but women and children are among the casualties.

please, oh please, tell me that those people weren't stupid enough to fire their guns into the air in celebration during a time of war...

	20-05-2004 23:01									#7
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Heh. The big blow-up today is House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) telling Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., to see the true sacrifice of war by visiting military hospitals. Never mind the fact that McCain spent five years as a POW in Vietnam — and witnessed/experienced torture — while Hastert was rejected for military service due to a shoulder problem.

What the f*ck is it with the majority of our so-called GOP leaders?

Gatekeeper

	20-05-2004 23:04									#8
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Because a lot of the abuse is most likely exaggerated on both sides and honestly there are far more worse abuses in just college/high school hazing in the US daily. It makes complaining about much the mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq look quite silly really.

	20-05-2004 23:07									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Because a lot of the abuse is most likely exaggerated on both sides and honestly there are far more worse abuses in just college/high school hazing in the US daily. It makes complaining about much the mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq look quite silly really.

Oh dear lord . . . . . I thought only a loon like Rush Limbaugh could put high school/college hazing on the same level as prisoner abuse.

	20-05-2004 23:16									#10
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quote: what happened to the moral compass of all these other Repubs and conservatives? The liberal says, "look at this abuse"; and the conservative says, "look at what they did to Mr Berg".

Because they want to win elections... or basically what che siad.

	20-05-2004 23:19									#11
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quote: Because a lot of the abuse is most likely exaggerated on both sides and honestly there are far more worse abuses in just college/high school hazing in the US daily. It makes complaining about much the mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq look quite silly really.

Kids usually aren't killed during a hazing.

	20-05-2004 23:21									#12
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While, I don't agree with Apoc...

What do you mean Ramo that kids aren't killed during hazings?! Why do you think there has been such an uproar recently. Plenty of kids have died of alcohol poisoning, etc., during hazings gone wrong.

	20-05-2004 23:24									#13
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Drinking too much alcohol is not quite the same thing as being beaten to death (certainly it isn't worse). And I did say usually.

	20-05-2004 23:26									#14
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Well seeing as how this situation is expanding, you may be able to say that people weren't killed in those prision camps usually (what was it 12?) .

And you diminish it by saying 'drinking too much alcohol'. Its FORCED to drink too much alcohol!

	20-05-2004 23:27									#15
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23 or so IIRC. Again, he said that far worse things happen in hazings daily. That is absolutely false.

	20-05-2004 23:29									#16
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Should I feel excluded from this thread being a conservative who sees the two as seperate issues?

	20-05-2004 23:30									#17
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Yes, but your statement didn't have daily in it .

	20-05-2004 23:32									#18
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Usually is a weaker condition than daily. Thus, I'm even more correct.

	20-05-2004 23:35									#19
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If by correct you mean wrong... then you'd be correct .

Usually implies a timeframe more infrequent than daily, when you are talking about a timespan of a year. Usually may mean once a week, once a month, etc.

	20-05-2004 23:37									#20
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It's a lot of stuff other than alcohol poisoning. Dehydration, heart failure (due to excessive work), suicide, etc.

None deadly things include...
Knives up rectums, buring **** into people's arms, hooking people's skin with wires, downing large amounts of certain foods, being in a hot room with no ventalation while doing various workouts, held under water until going limp, put in a locker/truck for hours to sometimes over a day, etc....

	20-05-2004 23:40									#21
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How is it wrong? You seem to have a reading problem.

quote: Usually implies a timeframe more infrequent than daily, when you are talking about a timespan of a year. Usually may mean once a week, once a month, etc.

Yes. "Usually is a weaker condition than daily. Thus, I'm even more correct. "

If it's unusual, it doesn't happen daily.

	20-05-2004 23:40									#22
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quote: It's a lot of stuff other than alcohol poisoning. Dehydration, heart failure (due to excessive work), suicide, etc.

That doesn't happen daily from hazings (or usually ).

	20-05-2004 23:43									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That doesn't happen daily from hazings (or usually ).

Hell yeah it does. Where have you been?

	20-05-2004 23:45									#24
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In a city with one of the biggest universities in the world. Death by hazing is not a daily occurence.

	20-05-2004 23:47									#25
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quote: Yes. "Usually is a weaker condition than daily. Thus, I'm even more correct. " If it's unusual, it doesn't happen daily.

Which means I'm right .

	20-05-2004 23:47									#26
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I never said death was...and death in these prisons is far from even "usual." Other of some of these rather dangerous forms are daily.

	20-05-2004 23:52									#27
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You said that far worse things than the prison abuses (which include killings) happen daily in hazings. That's completely wrong.

	20-05-2004 23:56									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I never said death was...and death in these prisons is far from even "usual." Other of some of these rather dangerous forms are daily.

You're talking out of your ass.


Not in that these deaths are not unusual, but your comparison with abuses with hazings.

	20-05-2004 23:56									#29
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There have been more deaths in these prisons than in university hazings.

	20-05-2004 23:59									#30
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Have you guys actually been reading the articles past the word "abuse"?