26-05-2004 22:02									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well I finally got to read this thread and I must say I agree with the majority. For issue 6) I realize it is one of my suggestion. Consequently I must vote for A). Actually I feel what the duke is doing right now for the current mafia game is a perfect example for clues.

	26-05-2004 22:43									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hmm for option 6, I say B. There should be clues all the way through not just when there's only one mafia. If there is only one mafia left, then the clues should become more difficult not easier IMHO.

	26-05-2004 23:56									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

ISSUE 1) Player admission:
B) Free-for-all

ISSUE 2) Storyline:
C) Flexible (GM's call)

ISSUE 3) Coordination with the Mafia game:
A) Run Gangsters "simultaneously" with Mafia

ISSUE 4) Gangsters' identities:
ABSTAIN

ISSUE 5) Turn structure:
A) Mafia-style (24 hours; flexible weekend)

ISSUE 6) Killing style:
ABSTAIN

ISSUE 7) Voting procedure:
C) Other - People may decide if they want to vote public or in private (If voting both places, the private vote counts

	27-05-2004 04:17									#124
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Mafia works great, no need to change too much. The closed ballot test is good though.

	27-05-2004 15:43									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Actually I feel what the duke is doing right now for the current mafia game is a perfect example for clues.

What? Making them too hard, so the villagers resort to guessing again?

One of the major clues has been picked up so far, and (I'm not saying which one) was ignored for the purposes of voting. However, there are minor clues dotted around, of which some will be far more obvious than others. As with Jamski's games, it really is a case of just going back and reading all of the posts I've made. Well, all right, I'll lety you off reading the spammy posts that try to encourage voting or clue-seeking.

	27-05-2004 19:14									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Got to ask you, are all the clues relevant or are some of them red herrings like when Jamski did the game?

	27-05-2004 20:03									#127
	Inflate your Upload Space

They're all relevant, but you have to interpret them in the right way.

While we're on about Mafia, how's about a snazzy little badge for players of the game? Like the Civ 2 Succession Games badge (see left).

	27-05-2004 21:26									#128
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

1 B
2 C
3 B
4 A
5 A
6 B
7 B

	27-05-2004 21:28									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It would be amusing if these games/ or just the mafia games got their own subforum but I somehow don't think it'll happen

	27-05-2004 22:59									#130
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The Community Games Forum

	27-05-2004 23:09									#131
	Support Apolyton

Well, that might be more likely to happen Then a civgroup would certainly be justifable... but I worry that less people will join if we 'subforum' the section... since less people will see the games

but you do have to admit that they currently clutter the Other Games section quite a bit!

	28-05-2004 01:07									#132
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by HongHu The Community Games Forum

	28-05-2004 01:43									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

1. B
2. C
3. A
4. A
5. A
6. A
7. A

	28-05-2004 02:38									#134
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Think of what would happen to poor Other Games.

	28-05-2004 02:40									#135
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Grumbold would throw a party

-Jam

	28-05-2004 20:24									#136
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni Main Idea "Gangsters".

Great!

quote: Gameplay Gangsters will use the basic formula of Mafia, but will also be an experimental ground for the original Mafia game.

Also sounds good.


ISSUE 1) Player admission:
B) Free-for-all

If some newbie actually proves they're not as interested somebody could always replace them mid-game via the GM.

ISSUE 2) Storyline:
C) Flexible (GM's call)

ISSUE 3) Coordination with the Mafia game:
A) Run Gangsters "simultaneously" with Mafia

Though each game should start once it fills... so it may not be pure simultaneous...

ISSUE 4) Gangsters' identities:
B) Appointed gangsters DO NOT know of each other that they are the gangsters

Why change something like that for gangsters that isn't in Mafia? I've never been the mafia yet, but isn't part of the fun about being the mafia trying to also figure out who the other one is and killing them off?

Rules
- A player may not simultaneously play Mafia and Gangsters.

Agreed.

ISSUE 5) Turn structure:
A) Mafia-style (24 hours; flexible weekend)

Yes. If this is a sister/brother game to mafia we can't very well have new players get used to another system.

ISSUE 6) Killing style:
A) If there is only one Gangster, then s/he must leave some kind of clue as a signature

Ummm.... how about having the GM provide clues? Maybe the gangsters offering suggestions, but the GM would know how to better submit a clue in the context of the story.

ISSUE 7) Voting procedure:
A) Same as Mafia

Same as some other above reasons: stray too far from Mafia-style and when players migrate back and forth they have to remember too much change.

And thanks to Zopp for making the list.

	28-05-2004 22:27									#137
	Increase Your PM Length

Current vote tally

ISSUE 1) Player admission:
A) Separate games for veterans and new players - [0]
B) Free-for-all - [16]
C) Other - [0]

ISSUE 2) Storyline:
A) Same/similar to Mafia - [0]
B) Different - [2]
C) Flexible (GM's call) - [15]

ISSUE 3) Coordination with the Mafia game:
A) Run Gangsters "simultaneously" with Mafia - [4]
B) Allow different run-times by having "dead" players cross over - [13]

ISSUE 4) Gangsters' identities:
A) Appointed gangsters know of each other that they are the gangsters - [4]
B) Appointed gangsters DO NOT know of each other that they are the gangsters - [11]

ISSUE 5) Turn structure:
A) Mafia-style (24 hours; flexible weekend) - [16]
B) 48 hours - [0]
C) Other - [0]

ISSUE 6) Killing style:
A) If there is only one Gangster, then s/he must leave some kind of clue as a signature - [10]
B) No/Other - [6]

ISSUE 7) Voting procedure:
A) Same as Mafia - [3]
B) Closed ballot - [12]
C) Other (both options are valid, but private vote is eventually the one that counts; proposed by ADG) - 1



OK, I think the picture is clearer now on ISSUE 6) All the others seem decided as well now.

This results in the following set of rules for "Gangsters":

Main Idea
To support the growth of the Mafia game and to relieve the original Mafia game, a spin-off will be introduced. For convenience and distinction, this spin-off will be named "Gangsters".


Gameplay
Gangsters will use the basic formula of Mafia, but will also be an experimental ground for the original Mafia game.

Gangsters will be played independently from Mafia with its own player pool, run-time, and possibly story setting (if the GM chooses so).

Like in Mafia, a General Manager (GM) will host the game. The GM will appoint one or two players (dependent on total number of participants) to be the "Gangster(s)".
The game knows two time-settings: Day and Night. During nighttime, a player will be killed by (one of) the Gangster(s) (and eliminated from playing). During daytime, the surviving players will all vote for who they believe is the (a) Gangster. The person who receives the most votes is then killed and eliminated from playing.

When there are two Gangsters appointed, they will alternate kills until one of them is killed. The appointed Gangsters do NOT know of each other that they are Gangsters. Therefore, it is possible that one Gangster kills the other. Both Gangsters will have different killing styles to distinguish them from each other.
If there is only one Gangster, then the GM will have him/her leave some kind of clue as a signature.


Rules
- Any member can sign up to play Gangsters, but a player may not simultaneously play Mafia and Gangsters.
- However, if a player is already killed and eliminated from playing Mafia, s/he is allowed to participate in a new round of Gangsters. The opposite is true as well: if a player is already killed and eliminated from playing Gangsters, s/he is allowed to participate in a new round of Mafia.
- Surviving players have 24 hours time to cast their votes on who they think is a Gangster. This rule will be flexible during weekends (depending on the voting situation).
- Players may only cast one vote per voting round. This vote is made through a closed ballot by PM'ing the vote to the GM. Votes made in the game thread will not be accepted.


Comparison to Mafia
Here's a brief rundown of the similarities/differences with Mafia.

Similarities
- Basic formula
- Vote structure

Differences
- Player pool (mutually exclusive)
- Run-time (independent from Mafia)
- Story-setting (if GM chooses so)
- Voting form (closed ballot)


Discussion
If there are any comments or questions or anything, please post them.

Since it is a holiday weekend coming up, I propose that the sign-up can wait until Tuesday.

Is there anyone who fancies hosting this game? (If no-one else wants to, I wouldn't mind doing it.)

	28-05-2004 23:02									#138
	Put an end to popups!

Mutually exclusive player pool means people who are still alive in the current mafia game are not eligible to sign up for it right?

	28-05-2004 23:25									#139
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That is correct.

	29-05-2004 01:50									#140
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: both options are valid, but private vote is eventually the one that counts; proposed by ADG

Isn't that the same idea as closed ballot? Since people can lie about their choices with closed?

-
I'd be up for signing up today actually
-
I would also like to suggest a heavy-roleplaying flavor for the game- (since I like roleplaying) with the characters behaving like it's a murder mystery... sort of like the movie CLUE (If anyone has seen it)

Everyone plays a role, like in mafia, and then by general concensus and deduction in-thread and by secret support (we can assume taht those who don't publicly denounce anyone merely stand by and nod wehn the majority selected murderer gets the axe), they execute their role!

	29-05-2004 01:52									#141
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I mean- if the signup started today- it could end on tuesday and then the game could start on wednesday...

	29-05-2004 01:54									#142
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Isn't that the same idea as closed ballot? Since people can lie about their choices with closed?

No, I cut some corners with the explanation there. The idea was that if you cast a public vote without casting a private vote, then the public vote stands. However, if you cast both a public and a private vote, then the private vote stands.

This method gives the GM a lot of headaches, so it's best to not implement it.

	29-05-2004 02:10									#143
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

oh, ok.

	31-05-2004 15:30									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have only one objection. To the name. Why wouldn't this game be called mafia, since it indeed differs only slightly from the established rules and follows the same concept? If I remember correctly, there was already one game called gangsters in which you had real mafia gangs with their hitmen, lieutenants and bosses. This name may actually cause confusion, rather than bring more clarity.

	31-05-2004 15:37									#145
	Put an end to popups!

How about just calling it: Mafia TE


TE = The Experiment


Which also gives that if someone has an idea on how to make it better, we could use Mafia TE as a test-base

	31-05-2004 15:44									#146
	Put an end to popups!

"Gangsters" is, of course, only conceptual, but I strongly oppose a name with "Mafia" in it, because it would only work confusing when browsing for the thread.

What's the opinion on this?


Other possibilities could be:
Mobsters
Cosa Nostra
Underworld

	31-05-2004 15:58									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think it's too late. I already think of it as Gangsters.

	31-05-2004 20:05									#148
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

But I don't see how Gangsters are involved in it in any way- "Assassins" makes more sense... as would "Stealth Murderers"... (though I personally prefer Assassins)

	31-05-2004 20:06									#149
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

...how about Maniac..?

	31-05-2004 20:15									#150
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Maniac would be all-right.

Assassins seems to fit it better, however.

Gangsters just seems wrong... what's gangsterish about just randomly killing people?

"Murderers" maybe?