26-05-2004 09:20									#61
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Mono:

quote: The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.17

This sounds like a lot, but when you have 1.5 million abortions, that means that even if all the women pregnant by rape had an abortion, you would have 2.2% of abortions due to rape.

Actual studies show maybe 30% of those pregnant by rape actually have an abortion, so you would have less than 1% due to rape.

http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

	26-05-2004 09:22									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi We're technical folks. Why not use the biological, rather than colloquial terms? Biologically, we do not differentiate between a pig embryo and a pig in terms of species. Why should we do so for humans?

Because we are not discussing biological ideas. Biologically, the notion of race is bunk, but we don't bring that up in every racism discussion.

What biologically...

Anyways, I've just finished reading Dawkins' Selfish Gene and I am even not particularly inclined to even view people as alive or capable of reproduction. Genes are what reproduces, while we -- their rebellious independent vehicles -- merely coalesce around them after meiosis.^-^

Eh.

Hmm.

A nebula may grow and kick wildly, but it's not a solar system until a sun ignites.

	26-05-2004 09:23									#63
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I'm pro-choice up to the point where the fetus is consciously capable of reacting to stimulus. We can't pinpoint when this happens, but it's certainly not getting it's bottom spanked by the doctor that magically forms the neural pathways capable of thought and feeling.

When dealing with a human life, I think you have to err on the side of caution. 'Day after' pill is perfectly ok IMO. 1st trimester, ok, by the end getting iffy (detectable brain activity by week 8, but very unlikely to be conscious at that point of course). 2nd, you are definitely getting iffy. Besides, you should be able to figure out whether you want the abortion or not in 3 months. Somewhere in the second trimester IMO, it becomes killing a baby. 3rd trimester is definitely killing a person IMO. My twin sisters were born 8 1/2 weeks premature and needed an incubator to survive (even that wasn't enough for one of them). They were both alive, even though they couldn't survive on their own. (Hell, I couldn't survive on my own in many parts of the world...) So, would it have been ok to stick a needle in their heada at that point if the hospital didn't want to house them in the incubator?

Of course ideal is not to have unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Outside of rape, they are preventable.

	26-05-2004 09:26									#64
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quote: Because we are not discussing biological ideas.

So abortion has nothing to do with biology?

The definition of a human being has nothing to do with biology?

That's an intriguing argument.

What then is this debate all about if not biology?

	26-05-2004 09:28									#65
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Aeson:

quote: by the end getting iffy (detectable brain activity by week 8, but very unlikely to be conscious at that point of course). 2nd, you are definitely getting iffy. Besides, you should be able to figure out whether you want the abortion or not in 3 months. Somewhere in the second trimester IMO, it becomes killing a baby. 3rd trimester is definitely killing a person IMO.

So if we do not know whether we are dealing we a person, shouldn't we hold off?

That seems to me more reasonable than to kill before we are sure.

	26-05-2004 09:33									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So why don't we kill born people to redress the ecological balance?

	26-05-2004 09:34									#67
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I nominate Combat Ingrid.

	26-05-2004 09:37									#68
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BK,

I'm becoming convinced you just want to make us all quote ourselves:

quote: When dealing with a human life, I think you have to err on the side of caution.

Until there is detectable brain activity I do not believe you can make any case for abortion being the killing of a person. At that point the fetus has less of a likelyhood of consciousness than any animal with a brain, and roughly the same chance as a plant.

While I'd think it would be great if no abortions ever happened, I think when you weigh the conscious desire of the mother against the non-existant desire of the fetus to live in that case, the mother's desire (as the only one) is most important.

I do not think there is anything inherently valuable about life. (Conscious) life places value on itself. So once consciousness is achieved there is value to life that needs to be taken into account.

	26-05-2004 09:38									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I nominate Combat Ingrid.

I'm honoured

	26-05-2004 09:52									#70
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quote: (detectable brain activity by week 8, but very unlikely to be conscious at that point of course).

Aeson:

I'm not trying to be difficult, but your position needs more consideration.

quote: Until there is detectable brain activity I do not believe you can make any case for abortion being the killing of a person.

Then why not set Week 8 as the point at which someone becomes a person? Why settle for an iffy position?

In saying otherwise, you are assuming not based on facts, but on probabilities.

How do we know that someone with detectable brain activity is not conscious?

quote: At that point the fetus has less of a likelyhood of consciousness than any animal with a brain, and roughly the same chance as a plant.

How can someone with detectable brain activity not have a brain? Does detectable brain activity spring into being all at once? From nothing? No. Certain structures need to be in place before we can have any detectable brain activity. The development of the brain cannot be isolated from the development of consciousness, because the two are part of the same process.

Consciousness may be the culmination of brain development, but to see only consciousness distorts the sophisticated process required for consciousness to form.

	26-05-2004 10:07									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So abortion has nothing to do with biology? The definition of a human being has nothing to do with biology?

No, it's just that biology has a different definition from colloquial use.

"Radiation" covers a lot more in terms of physics than it does in colloquial use.

Ditto for "force", but quite the opposite for "power" and "energy".


Conception refers to the process where a big gamete with 23 chromosomes meets a fast gamete with 23 chromosomes. They merge and form a zygote with 46 chromosomes.

To me, saying that everything in Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen applies to such a zygote is absurd. Birth provides a convenient marker for the application.


We always tend to ignore basic views in these discussions, but to me brain == soul. When a brain comes into existence, so does its soul aspect. When a brain dies, the soul dies and is no more.

You, on the other hand, are a mind-body dualist and view these things differently.

	26-05-2004 10:16									#72
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quote: Then why not set Week 8 as the point at which someone becomes a person?

Because I didn't say brain activity.

My statement:

quote: I'm pro-choice up to the point where the fetus is consciously capable of reacting to stimulus.

------------

quote: How can someone with detectable brain activity not have a brain?

If you have trouble understanding a point, try to take a sentence in context with the rest of the post, and especially the paragraph it's in. The sentence preceeding the one you quoted is the context.

Here it is so you won't have to scroll:

quote: Until there is detectable brain activity I do not believe you can make any case for abortion being the killing of a person.

---------------

quote: The development of the brain cannot be isolated from the development of consciousness, because the two are part of the same process.

Until the brain is active there is no chance that it is running the "consciousness" program. There may be consciousness, but at that point the likelyhood is the same as a plant being conscious.

quote: Consciousness may be the culmination of brain development, but to see only consciousness distorts the sophisticated process required for consciousness to form.

I don't care about the process that forms it, only the point where the conscious state is achieved. If you follow up on your logic here, not having sex is killing a person as it is negating the process that that person would be formed by.

	26-05-2004 10:29									#73
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quote: So people who are currently unconscious are no longer persons?

How long must someone be unconscious for such a conclusion to be drawn?

quote: If you believe that a right can be lost due to extenuating circumstances, what would that say for a population that does not vote? Do they lose their right to liberty because they are lazy?

Only in a given election. if you don't vote in an election, isn'tthat pretty much giving up your right to liberty? But should liberty be forced upon them? Don't they have the right to vote, while not exercising it?

quote: btw, I feel sorry for you bipolarbear. I escaped Catholic school after fourth grade.

I'm finally escaping it. My senior year will be one of purity. Miraculously it will also be well funded, and in Oregon !

quote: Conception meets all of these standards.

Actually, according to my biased Catholic source, brain waves, which would show that there is a very very small level of what can be considered thought, happens a couple of weeks AFTER conception. So boom ther goes your whole conception thingy!

quote: What then is this debate all about if not biology?

Well, there are many levels to this discussion otehr than biological.

	26-05-2004 10:44									#74
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Aeson:

No dice. You do use the words, 'detectable brain activity'.

Quit dancing.

Your words, and quoted in my post above, and quoted by you in your last post.

quote: (detectable brain activity by week 8, but very unlikely to be conscious at that point of course)

quote: Until the brain is active there is no chance that it is running the "consciousness" program. There may be consciousness, but at that point the likelyhood is the same as a plant being conscious

Ah, but you do say 'detectable' brain activity. So why not date personhood to 8 weeks, to remain consistent to your own standard, and banning all abortions after 8 weeks?

quote: I don't care about the process that forms it, only the point where the conscious state is achieved. If you follow up on your logic here, not having sex is killing a person as it is negating the process that that person would be formed by.

There is no distinct entity until conception.

	26-05-2004 10:50									#75
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bipolarbear:

quote: Well, there are many levels to this discussion otehr than biological.

True, but biology plays an important part.

quote: How long must someone be unconscious for such a conclusion to be drawn?

Good question. The bioethical definition of brain death is the irreverseable cessation of brain activity. (that word again.)

The key word is irreverseable. One can currently lack brain activity, but still be a person.

quote: happens a couple of weeks AFTER conception. So boom ther goes your whole conception thingy!

That dodges my point on capacity not being the equivalent of manifestation. One can have the capacity yet not use the capacity.

quote: Don't they have the right to vote, while not exercising it?

Clever. Liberty must permit the party to have the right not to vote, just as much as it protects the right to vote.

The same applies here. Everyone deserves the right to live their life. Even unwanted unborn children. No one else can force that decision but them. Not even the mother.

	26-05-2004 10:57									#76
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Because you still fail to see that I never said detectable brain activity is consciousness. Such a claim would be ludicrous.

I said that without detectable brain activity there is very little chance (comparable to that of a plant) of there being consciousness, and so before that point there really isn't a question in my opinion.

At 8 weeks the probability starts to rise that there is consciousness. It isn't a 100% thing at 8 weeks, but a very low chance still. By the end of the 2nd trimester and start of the 3rd it's closing in on 100%.

I personally don't have the right to demand everyone view it the same way though. That question is up to society in general (and the laws/methods already in place) to decide. I can play a part of that, but I don't expect people to adhere to my opinion as law.

Personally, I will never have an abortion, and neither will my wife (she's non-existant, so it makes it easy to influence her decisions, and I would make sure any potential mate knew I do no plan on having children except through adoption). I view abortions after the second trimester as killing a person. I'm not quite sure how to view abortions before then, I just don't know the point where a fetus becomes conscious.

As such I am not going to condemn people based on a faulty knowlege of mine, or demand they adhere to my opinion. I'll leave that to others...

	26-05-2004 11:26									#77
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quote: True, but biology plays an important part.

I'm not saying it doesn't, but you did ask what other levels cna you discuss the issue on.

quote: Good question. The bioethical definition of brain death is the irreverseable cessation of brain activity. (that word again.) The key word is irreverseable. One can currently lack brain activity, but still be a person.

Now we must define brain activity, as it applies to life that has rights, or if all levels of brain activity indicate life.

quote: That dodges my point on capacity not being the equivalent of manifestation. One can have the capacity yet not use the capacity.

So b/c someone has the capacity to kill does htat make the ma murderer?

quote: The same applies here. Everyone deserves the right to live their life. Even unwanted unborn children. No one else can force that decision but them. Not even the mother.

So it is automatically the fetus's life, and the mother has no say in it? I feel that b/c it is her child, she has some say in its life.

	26-05-2004 11:33									#78
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quote: I personally don't have the right to demand everyone view it the same way though. That question is up to society in general (and the laws/methods already in place) to decide. I can play a part of that, but I don't expect people to adhere to my opinion as law.

Yes, many people forget wether they are arguing the moral, or the legal implications of it. I didn't really specify, b/c I think it enriches the discussion by not closing it off. Even if I did, the conversation always drifts over anyways.
It seems to me that, regardless of legality, people will have abortions, and so making it illegal is quite pointless, unless you need money, and fining people for abortions seems prudent. I'm not saying that everything should be run on thta basis, but I think abortion could be. I haven't realy thought this one out, so feel free tp balst me for all of the logical, moral, etc. holes in this argument.

	26-05-2004 11:51									#79
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quote: I just don't know the point where a fetus becomes conscious.

So then why do we kill when we are unsure of whether we have a person or not. If we were to hunt in the woods, do we pull the trigger before we know for sure? No.

It's not enough to be uncertain when we are dealing with a matter of life or death, when our actions may result in the death of another person.

quote: I personally don't have the right to demand everyone view it the same way though. That question is up to society in general (and the laws/methods already in place) to decide. I can play a part of that, but I don't expect people to adhere to my opinion as law.

Well, someone has to decide what will be law and what will not be law. Everyone should stand up for what they believe to be right.

If you are uncertain, I appreciate your honesty. But I think you can do better than this uncertainty, which is why I make the case that I do.

	26-05-2004 11:54									#80
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I think that it's important to have laws that we feel are just, even if in application they become pointless due to inability to police them properly. On one hand we are inept and trying, on the other we are inept and not true to ourselves.

For non-violent crimes I agree that fines should be the punishment. Incarceration should be reserved for protecting the populace from criminals who pose an actual physical threat.

	26-05-2004 11:55									#81
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quote: Well, someone has to decide what will be law and what will not be law. Everyone should stand up for what they believe to be right. If you are uncertain, I appreciate your honesty. But I think you can do better than this uncertainty, which is why I make the case that I do.

The abortion thing is hard to just cast off as "oh let's make it legal" b/c so many people see ti as murder. I don't really, until the third trimester, but still its quite hard to define.
I take comfort though, in the fact that people are stnading up for what they see as murder.
Regarding the uncertainty, it is better though, to be uncertain, but in a state of consideration, rather than uncertain and in a state of stagnation.

	26-05-2004 11:56									#82
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quote: For non-violent crimes I agree that fines should be the punishment. Incarceration should be reserved for protecting the populace from criminals who pose an actual physical threat.

What about victimless crimes like smoking pot?

	26-05-2004 11:57									#83
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quote: So b/c someone has the capacity to kill does htat make the ma murderer?

One is not a murderer until one commits the murderer.

But personhood is something different. We are not the sum total of our actions, we are more than that. This is why the capacity argument works better than form and function. One can function in a similar way to which people do, yet one would not considered a person. A horse is much more physically impressive and imposing than an infant, yet we would not confuse the two.

People have a wide range of current abilities. In order to accomodate these differences requires a definition based on the intrinsic capacity. Otherwise, you end up having to exclude some born people as persons in order to satisfy your definition of personhood.

quote: So it is automatically the fetus's life, and the mother has no say in it? I feel that b/c it is her child, she has some say in its life.

In his life, or her life. Yes, all mothers have a say. But they do not get to decide whether their infant will live or die. If they do so, they will be charged with infanticide.

	26-05-2004 11:58									#84
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The reason I feel abortion should be kept legal is so that we are able to institute regulations and procedures.

If a woman fully wants to have an abortion and it is illegal, she will do whatever it takes to get that, even if it involves "alleyway" abortions.

This is why abortions should be legal...to prevent suffering to both mother and fetus.

	26-05-2004 11:59									#85
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Ben, have you ever stated what your opinion over rape or incest is?

	26-05-2004 12:00									#86
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quote: It seems to me that, regardless of legality, people will have abortions, and so making it illegal is quite pointless,

There are some real points. Laws influence morality. What one legislates often becomes morally correct, regardless of the true state. In banning abortion, you can drastically reduce the numbers performed. Poland has seen this in their own abortion rates, they have seen a substantial drop since they recriminalised abortion.

Now, another argument goes along the lines that there will always be people who murder each other. Does that mean we should not have any laws against murder?

	26-05-2004 12:05									#87
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Emperor Fabulous:

quote: Ben, have you ever stated what your opinion over rape or incest is?

Neither is a very good reason to kill a child.

In the case of incest, abortion covers up child abuse. Often the abuser will take the child in for an abortion, and the clinic workers will ensure that no one need find out.

In the case of rape, yes, the woman did not consent to have the child. But neither does the child consent to his mother. The child is not responsible for the rape, and has nowhere else to go, but inside the womb of his mother. Afterwards, if the woman wants to give up her child for adoption, she should, but until then, we should help the woman however we can.

	26-05-2004 12:05									#88
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quote: In his life, or her life. Yes, all mothers have a say. But they do not get to decide whether their infant will live or die. If they do so, they will be charged with infanticide.

But isn't the abortion debate a primarily moral debate? Isn't that jsut forcing you opinion about where life begins on people with different views? If carried out far enough, that could create a theocracy.(BTW on an unrelated note, how mnay actually successful theocracies have hteir been? I know of only Egypt.)

	26-05-2004 12:08									#89
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quote: For non-violent crimes I agree that fines should be the punishment. Incarceration should be reserved for protecting the populace from criminals who pose an actual physical threat.

I suppose I should clarify what I would consider appropriate punishment.

I don't think any woman should go to jail, because far too often the woman is the second victim, in her lack of informed consent, or because of other pressures put on her to abort.

I do think the doctors who profit off of abortion should face jail time. Similar penalties for them as for killing any other child.

	26-05-2004 12:08									#90
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quote: In banning abortion, you can drastically reduce the numbers performed. Poland has seen this in their own abortion rates, they have seen a substantial drop since they recriminalised abortion.

That is kind of a basic staemnet Ben. If you make and enforce, or at elast threaten to enforce a law, then people will folow it. All that really does is show that you have asuccessful government. Or that the laws are at least acceptable to the point were people don't revolt.
But on a more petinet note, how many "criminal" abortions are reported? I'd guess only those that are discovered. So obviously the rates would drop. Everything is now behing closed doors.