26-05-2004 08:08									#31
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quote: Why has the unborn children a certain right? Did it always have this right?

It depends on how you see rights. If you believe that rights are intrinsic, then the unborn child has always had the right to life, just as any other person. To say that all men are created equal, and that they possess inalienable rights, also falls under this category. If you believe that rights are created by society, then they are not persons, and do not have this right.

	26-05-2004 08:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 What matters is conscience, not the ability to grow and develop. Animals grow and develop - are you a vegetarian?

He should be.

A christian can't eat a burger without sealing his fate to hell.

	26-05-2004 08:10									#33
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quote: But then you are left supporting partial birth abortion.

No, I still don't see it as life at that point, just that if the mother has waited that long, then her rights are kind of over, due to laziness or even extinuating circumstances.

quote: But you do see the connection between the status of the child? The two are intertwined.

Can you elaborate?

	26-05-2004 08:11									#34
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bipolarbear: this thread was the most recent rehashing of the abortion debate here, AFAIK. There have been others, but I'm not sure if the search function is working properly, and anyway, they're usually more or less the same. They tend to peter out after one party or another gets bored with asserting their moral superiority, only to arise anew when somebody decides that they haven't been spouting enough empty rhetoric lately.

	26-05-2004 08:12									#35
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quote: I'd LOVE to see where you get these statistics.

My Catholic Propaganda Class(It's also called Moral Theology)

quote: A christian can't eat a burger without sealing his fate to hell.

what aboout hot dogs? Are those even made of meat?

	26-05-2004 08:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I think that the semantics game is tiring and really just side-steps the issues completely. People can spend all their time arguing about what's human without adressing the actual issues of abortion at all.

Um... no, if the fetus is just a bag of cells within the mother, then what place does the government have telling her what to do with it? If it's a person, then yes, it would be murder.

quote: If the unborn child is not human life, than what is it?

Something that is human and can survive on its own (or in the case of some terminally ill patients/accident victims, etc., someone who once could survive on his own.)

quote: So there is no basis in history, nor in the present day for back-alley butchers.

Ah, you are fortunate enough not to know the megalomania of Ceausescu. He wanted to rule over more people so he banned abortion and contraception. Needless to say, some still tried to get abortions.

quote: Regardless of wether or not you want to think of an unborn child as a human or a lump of flesh, I do not think any sane person can think of abortion as a desirable or 'un-noteworthy' procedure. It's nasty buisness, and is usually a very traumatic event . The semantics argument is mostly just created to ignore this fact.

The semantics issue basically is the basis for whether or not the government has an obligation to stop the proceedure.

	26-05-2004 08:14									#37
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"To say that all men are created equal, and that they possess inalienable rights, also falls under this category."

I do not argue that all men are created equal. Rather I argue that a fetus is a man.

	26-05-2004 08:14									#38
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quote: bipolarbear: this thread was the most recent rehashing of the abortion debate here, AFAIK. There have been others, but I'm not sure if the search function is working properly, and anyway, they're usually more or less the same. They tend to peter out after one party or another gets bored with asserting their moral superiority, only to arise anew when somebody decides that they haven't been spouting enough empty rhetoric lately.

I find most deabtes on the topic are. That is where this one seems to be going, the was for our discussion of pornography. Oh well, I like talking about it w/ different people, even if it is somewhat the same.

	26-05-2004 08:14									#39
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monolith:

quote: You're quite welcome to build a time machine and travel back to the 19th century. The rest of us are happy with our society.

I'm talking about pre-1973. I don't think we were barbarians in the 60's.

We can do without abortion. Abortion is not a necessary part of civilised society, but will rather allow the society to consume itself.

quote: I'd LOVE to see where you get these statistics.

Sure. Give me a moment, and I'll dig up a few.

quote: What matters is conscience, not the ability to grow and develop. Animals grow and develop - are you a vegetarian?

So people who are currently unconscious are no longer persons?

I agree with you that conscience is an important part of personhood, but not with the insistence that conscience must first manifest itself.

People can be persons without necessarily being conscious, but no one is a person without having the capacity to develop conscience. The two are different things.

	26-05-2004 08:17									#40
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quote: A christian can't eat a burger without sealing his fate to hell.

Fetuses are not animals?

I don't believe in giving animals equivalent rights to people, but even if you believe they should, you should also extend the same courtesy to unborn children.

	26-05-2004 08:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis The semantics issue basically is the basis for whether or not the government has an obligation to stop the proceedure.

Well, you're right I suppose. When the government's concerned semantics and legal speak is all that matters.

That's why I like to ignore the role of government and just argue on the merits of the action itself.

	26-05-2004 08:21									#42
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quote: that if the mother has waited that long, then her rights are kind of over, due to laziness or even extinuating circumstances.

Interesting.

That comes back to my point on rights.

If you believe that a right can be lost due to extenuating circumstances, what would that say for a population that does not vote? Do they lose their right to liberty because they are lazy?

I think that we don't really believe in reproductive rights as the equivalent to liberty, because we treat the two differently, yet apply the same terminology to both.

	26-05-2004 08:26									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Fetuses are not animals? I don't believe in giving animals equivalent rights to people, but even if you believe they should, you should also extend the same courtesy to unborn children.

My comment wasn't neccisarily related to abortion, although vegetarianism and pro-life do complement each other nicely. Even ignoring this side of the issue, a burger has a whole lot of sin in it. Everything from rape to cannabalism, and it's all done by humans.

And by the way, if you consider fetuses human then they are, by definition, animals aswell.

	26-05-2004 08:34									#44
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Gen. Ludd:

Well, for the topic of the thread, I have no beef with you

quote: Even ignoring this side of the issue, a burger has a whole lot of sin in it. Everything from rape to cannabalism, and it's all done by humans.

I think it's funny. Many of the environmentalists here are starting to side with hunters as a more environmentally sound form way of obtaining meat. I coulda told them that quite some time ago.

There's nothing like shooting your own goose, and then plucking, skinning, and cleaning to make cacchiatori.

	26-05-2004 08:36									#45
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo For the purposes of reproduction, life begins at birth.

Uh... life begins at birth no matter how you look at it. The embryo is quite obviously alive.

It's personhood that's disputed.

	26-05-2004 08:38									#46
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"Abortion is not a necessary part of civilised society, but will rather allow the society to consume itself. "

Abortion is a manifestation or cause of society consuming itself? Please - this is alarmist claptrap.

"So people who are currently unconscious are no longer persons?"

I deserve this - for I wasn't being specific. I believe that the creation of a consciousness, the point where the brain comes together and makes the connections that create the first thought of the fetus is around the point where a fetus ceases to be considered just a mass of flesh.

"If you believe that a right can be lost due to extenuating circumstances, what would that say for a population that does not vote? Do they lose their right to liberty because they are lazy?"

A completely irrelevant and silly point. A population that does not vote does not vote for any number of reasons. You're inferring that they do not vote because they do not desire liberty. You have no evidence to make that inference.

	26-05-2004 08:39									#47
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Victor Galis:

quote: Something that is human and can survive on its own

I meant the child, not human life.

What is the unborn child if it is not human life?

However, you bring up an interesting point in your post.

quote: someone who once could survive on his own.)

Why make the distinction. Clearly, they are not currently independent. Why don't they lose their right to life, since they are not using it properly?

I think it's better to discard the standard of independence, since we are all interdependent on one another for survival.

	26-05-2004 08:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Many of the environmentalists here are starting to side with hunters as a more environmentally sound form way of obtaining meat.

I don't think so. More ethical (although being more ethical than a factory farm is not something you can brag about) perhaps, but not environmentally sound. If every american went out and hunted for their food they'd probably kill everything in a matter of days.

The most enviornmentaly sound diet is one that has no meat.

	26-05-2004 08:43									#49
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quote: Abortion is a manifestation or cause of society consuming itself? Please - this is alarmist claptrap.

Abortion is neither the cause, nor a manifestation, but rather is society consuming itself.

Look at the demographics, mono. Europeans fear the Muslims because the Muslim women in Europe have more children. Children are essential for any society to survive.

One of the causes of the decline of the Roman empire was due to the fact that they relied too much on mercenaries for defense. Why did they do that? Because there were not enough young Romans to serve.

quote: You're inferring that they do not vote because they do not desire liberty. You have no evidence to make that inference.

And you are inferring that just because one restricts abortion means that one also is not interested in reproductive freedom.

People can believe in the right for people to have children, with whom they want, but that right need not include abortion.

	26-05-2004 08:46									#50
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btw, I feel sorry for you bipolarbear. I escaped Catholic school after fourth grade.

	26-05-2004 08:47									#51
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quote: I believe that the creation of a consciousness, the point where the brain comes together and makes the connections that create the first thought of the fetus is around the point where a fetus ceases to be considered just a mass of flesh.

That begs the question.

Is the fetus a mass of flesh before this point? No.

Secondly, when does this magical flash occur? Can you pinpoint it with any regularity? Can you observe it in a lab? Is the hypothesis testable?

Conception meets all of these standards.

	26-05-2004 08:47									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich ...Catholic school...

This explains much

	26-05-2004 08:49									#53
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Like the fact that I'm a pro-gay marriage, pro-choice atheist? (As opposed to a mormon like you.)

	26-05-2004 08:49									#54
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Abortion is not statistically significant enough for me to consider it society consuming itself.

Also I think the reasons why intolerance towards Muslims exists in Europe is a LITTLE more complex than a simple fear that they'll be overwhelmed in a vast swarthy tide of righteousness. At least, I hope that the reason is complex.

You talk of Empire as if you fear that this United States will fall, or at least that seems to be the subtext of your post. The idea that this society we live in will consume itself.

Besides, there are too many people anyways. This world would probably be healthier ecologically at around 5 billion or so. There's no reason why our population needs to keep expanding at the rate that it does.

	26-05-2004 08:54									#55
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quote: Ah, you are fortunate enough not to know the megalomania of Ceausescu. He wanted to rule over more people so he banned abortion and contraception. Needless to say, some still tried to get abortions.

Did he force them to have kids, or did they do that on their own?

	26-05-2004 08:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich (As opposed to a mormon like you.)

The Lenin will make you pay for those words

	26-05-2004 08:56									#57
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"Is the fetus a mass of flesh before this point? No."

Yes. Without thought a human being is nothing but a mass of flesh. The only difference is our own human sentiment, that causes us to do such ridiculous things as, say, fancy funeral rights for example.

"Secondly, when does this magical flash occur? Can you pinpoint it with any regularity? Can you observe it in a lab? Is the hypothesis testable?"

The fact that we cannot monitor with accurate precision at this point in science is exactly why I'm so torn up about abortion.

	26-05-2004 08:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar The Lenin will make you pay for those words

The Reagan shall bury The Lenin!

	26-05-2004 09:02									#59
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mono:

quote: Abortion is not statistically significant enough for me to consider it society consuming itself.

"The ratio of the number of induced abortions per 100 live births increased from 31.3 in 1999 to 32.2 in 2000."

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/030328/d030328e.htm

"3.96 million live births, 1.31 million induced abortions, and 1 million fetal losses (miscarriages and stillbirths)."

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/0.../pregbirths.htm

What this means is that 1/4 of all who would have been born have died here in Canada, and about 1/5 in the US.

We have lost 25% of our generation.

Statistically insignificant? I don't think so.

quote: Besides, there are too many people anyways.

So why don't we kill born people to redress the ecological balance?

	26-05-2004 09:06									#60
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quote: Without thought a human being is nothing but a mass of flesh. The only difference is our own human sentiment, that causes us to do such ridiculous things as, say, fancy funeral rights for example.

They have funeral rites for unborn children in Japan. We would have them here, except the clinics have opposed them for quite some time.

quote: The fact that we cannot monitor with accurate precision at this point in science is exactly why I'm so torn up about abortion.

So why not come to the same conclusion as Barnard Nathanson?

Why not go with the point where you can be confident, rather than insecure?