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Chip_Buckner
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Kansas
Jul 2002
time: 23:36
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Turn to Yoda. Just like the old days!
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Chip_Buckner
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Kansas
Jul 2002
time: 23:36
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On to Yoda.
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Chip_Buckner
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Kansas
Jul 2002
time: 23:36
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"Bring him on!", he said, trying very hard not to look and sound intimidated.
It is, by the way, another boy scout weekend. I can play through early Saturday morning, but will then be out of reach for about thirty hours.
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Net Warrior
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Long Island, New York
Sep 2003
time: 00:36
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President,
Please expect Free Drones dipomatic correspondence.
Foreman Domai
Last edited by Net Warrior on 12-11-2004 at 17:20
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Net Warrior
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Long Island, New York
Sep 2003
time: 00:36
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Ok guys, here's something I've never seen or heard discussed before. Very wierd stuff:
The candidates were Googlie with 112 and Zakharov with 209 when I started the turn. I voted and then during my production phase, as expected, I completed The Empathic Guild SP. As usual I saved my turn to mull over my move. When I was ready, I loaded it up and I got to vote again, as expected.
Now here's the wierd part. Now the candidates were Googlie with 112 and Domai with 0. All the votes were cast as before for Zak but Zak was no longer a candidate.
Stupidly enough, I didn't notice this till after I had voted the 2nd time and I didn't even vote for myself. But no matter, Googlie has the votes to win for himself vs Domai, no matter what the remainin voters do.
So guys, please read this and comment. I'll hold the move for a while just to see what you all think.
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Chip_Buckner
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Kansas
Jul 2002
time: 23:36
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For several years, whenever the state of Missouri had an election problem, it referred the matter to yours truly, who was state Assistant Attorney General. (It was after my era, but those of you familiar with US politics may remember that Missouri was the state that elected a dead man to the US Senate.) Based on my years of professional experience, I can tell you that there is a technical legal term that touches perfectly on this situation. And that term is ...
Yuk!
I think there are two issues. First, who are the candidates? Second, how many votes does Domai get to cast?
It seems to me that when an election does not admit for the possibility of a write-in vote, the candidates must necessarily be fixed before election day. It does not matter, for example, that Colin Powell or Hilary Clinton might have been able to collect more votes than did George Bush. Powell and Clinton were not on the ballot and, therefore, could not have been elected. I think, therefore, that the candidates must be Googlie and Zakharov.
I could have reached the same result by observing that one normally plays a turn to conclusion before saving the state of the game and passing the turn to the next player. If an individual can change the result from one known state (Googlie and Zakharov are the candidates) to another knowable state (Googlie and Domai are the candidates) merely by saving and reloading the turn, the condition is a bug in the multiplayer game. I would prohibit a condition that results from that bug.
The number of votes Domai is to cast creates a problem for me. The answer most advantageous to me would be that Domai gets his Empath Guild-enhanced vote total and my 38 little votes will decide the election. I do not, however, think that this is the right answer.
Using my Save/Load rule, I do not think it is appropriate to use any advantage that arises from Saving and Loading a turn. Applying this rule limits Domai to the lesser number of votes.
To pick up on Rubin's thought, I acknowledge that things may happen during a turn that affects the number of votes that are cast. In the normal case, though, you can only affect someone else's vote total. Nothing you do during your turn affects the number of votes you cast, because the votes are cast at the beginning of a turn.
My view is that Zak and Googlie are the candidates, Domai does not get the benefit of the Empath Guild this election cycle (if Googlie wanted those votes, he should have held off a year before calling the election) and I don't get to try to solicit a bribe from Googlie.
I acknowledge, however, that honorable people may have a different opinion. Because I enjoy the rapidity with which this group moves the game along, I want to keep playing with you guys. The most important thing to me, therefore, is that we reach a result that we all think is appropriate. If we do not reach a consensus on how this is to be handled, I would like to submit the matter to our CMN for a ruling.
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Net Warrior
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Long Island, New York
Sep 2003
time: 00:36
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Well I don't care much for a total replay from Googlie on. Also, the number of votes I got before and after the SP was the same, 57. Additionally, since we're here on Chiron and not back in the good old US of A, we have to abide by the prevailing rules, namely that a mid-turn change of heart is permitted.
The real problem is that the defacto winner, Zak, was knocked off the ballet. I think this is actually quite funny from a role playing point of view; it adds a twist to the game as it were. None the less, if we decide to fix it, I can simply reload the original move and play thru once. There was one event in my turn that was subject to randomness so that presents a bit of a problem too.
Anyway, I don't feet strongly about it one way or the other, and I'll go along with the majority.
edit: No, actually, wait, there were more like 3 random events in my turn. I almost forgot. ....errr, perhaps we should let Darsnan decide.
Last edited by Net Warrior on 16-11-2004 at 17:39
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Chip_Buckner
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Kansas
Jul 2002
time: 23:36
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Do we permit mid-turn changes of heart? Or did I misunderstand your meaning? There are times I pop a pod and decide, immediately thereafter, that it was a mistake. May I go back and undo that decision? Could I do that if, as sometimes appears to be the case with an election, I could do it without a causing something that others could see?
If I admitted how many mistakes I've made in this game, you'd probably stop playing with me. I have, for example, twice rush-built something with more than the minimum amount of minerals. On one of those occasions it happened because my wife interrupted me mid-keystroke. But I don't get to go back and undo my errant keystroke.
I don't have a problem with NetWarrior's replay. First, if he says it was an innocent save and reload, it was an innocent save and reload. Second, it's a game. Who cares? Third, if the only change we're concerned about is a set of random events, he can't control them. Random events are, after all, random. They may happen the same way. They may happen differently. He doesn't know. Presumably the same set of factors that caused him to make a particular decision the first time will be present and urge the same decision this time around.
Googlie's replay, though, is a different deal. The completion of the Empath Guild is not a random event. It will happen. He has been quite candid in telling us that, knowing that the EG will be completed and that NetWarrior will vote for him would cause him to delay calling the election a turn. I know that--weak a player as I am--even I would figure that one out. I will be disappointed if we undo and postpone the election.
Perhaps we ought to call in the Supreme Court.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:36
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Note that there is a difference between saving mid-game (using the left hand save option - but you have to rename the game as xxxxmid,sav or something - hereinafter referred to as a midturn save) and turn-completing, or exiting using the default save name.
With a midturn save, all moves completed to that turn are saved - in effect, you are simply "pausing" the game. There is no relaod message given, as, in fact, there is no reload, just a continuation.
The only difference is what happened here. "Cos the vote is "active" there is a chance to recast the vote (and if you do, then execute a midturn save again, then the vote comes up again, ad inf.)
If NW had executed a midturn save after getting the EG, then on reopening the turn I believe he would have seen his vote total double
So a midturn save is not a reload.
And a similar (to what happened) effect is generated when, for example, elections are called, and the 2 candidates identified. If a subsequent player has, say, the PTS and founds, say, 3 bases that turn, (and the 9 extra population makes him # 1 or #2 in the pop charts) then the subsequent player will see changed candidacies (but the expanding player won't get 9 more votes, as he voted at the beginning of his turn. If he executed a midturn save, then he'd see himself as a candidate as well as the extra 9 votes)
Last edited by Googlie on 16-11-2004 at 20:39
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01-11-2004 05:56
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