23-11-2004 07:54									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Rubin 2169 to Domai. Still nothing conclusive regarding the unexpected event during M.Y. 2167. I may have to hold next turn (M.Y. 2169) until I hear from Darsnan again.

Sorry for the delays getting back to you Rubin - RL stuff.
Anyways, the issue Rubin is having is that he as the Consciousness is not getting a free tech when he conquers a base from a Faction which has a tech that he does not.
The Datalinks state that the Consciousness has the ability to steal a tech when capturing an enemy base, and the SMAX Manual also echoes this statement. I have taken several turns from LPT2 and verified that the Consciousness doesn't steal a tech when capturing a base, either from the AI Uni's or the human led PK's. I also set up a Consciousness SP game and verified that they do not steal a tech when conquering an enemies base.
I thought perhaps I could rectify the situation by using Kody's Codicil tool to gift Rubin the appropriate number of free techs via the Scenario Editor, however the Codicil Tool doesn't allow me to access the Scenario Editor.
I guess my questions now are (1) can anyone verify the issues Rubin and I are experiencing as far as the Consciousness is concerned, and (2) what can be done in this game about Rubin's inability to steal techs from conquered bases?


D

	23-11-2004 08:34									#332
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I just did a test and can conclude that the Cybernetic Consciousness tech-steal ability works perfectly in both single player and multiplayer.

In this particular PBEM, however, the tech-steal ability is somehow corrupt. I see two possible solutions:

1) If the Consciousness conquers a base and there is a technology available to steal. The former base owner transfers a random technology to the Consciousness via the in-game diplomacy screen.

There are 3 issues to consider here: a) Map data can be stolen during cybernetic base captures, though map data seems to be chosen only when no other technologies are available; b) the Cybernetic Consciousness experiences a one year delay in acquiring 'stolen' technologies and finally c) if the former base owner is one of the AI controlled factions then this seems impossible to do.

2) We simply continue.

	23-11-2004 08:53									#333
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All right, I found the problem. Essentially I had a corrupted Cycon text file. I have corrected the issue, however it doesn't resolve how to proceed with this game. Any ideas?


D

	23-11-2004 09:48									#334
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Turn to Googlie.

	23-11-2004 17:34									#335
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One possible partial solution is that any of us who has (or gets) a tech that Cycon could have gotten from the AI would simply transfer it to Cycon. This still leaves the problem of Cycon being without a tech that it could have been capitalizing on when there is a few years lag in it's becomming available to Cycon due the AI being tho only current possessor. Also, if that tech has a SP attached then Cycon should have some rights to it.

	23-11-2004 22:51									#336
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2170 to Rubin

	24-11-2004 01:00									#337
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2171 to Domai.

	24-11-2004 03:25									#338
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turn to Cult

	24-11-2004 05:51									#339
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Turn to Googlie.

	24-11-2004 08:53									#340
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2171 to Rubin

	24-11-2004 20:41									#341
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....err, Rubin, before we proceed further, are you really going to play the game out with this handicap?

If so, do we all agree on passing along any techs to Rubin that he would have gotten with tech steal?

	24-11-2004 21:21									#342
	Remove this text

That's what I'm doing for the few turns I've left

	25-11-2004 00:02									#343
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2172 to Domai.

The lack of the Cybernetic Consciousness' tech-steal ability is permanent throughout this game and I find it far too late to restart Laptop II. I shall continue with this handicap and try to make the best of what I've got.

Depending on how you view fair play sending technologies that were supposed to be stolen via base captures seems a viable compensation; I am uncertain if capturing AI bases should be considered.

The tech-steal ability allows the offender to freely choose between any of the defender's available technologies. Hence, by capturing a base the Cybernetic Consciousness automatically get an instant report on the defender's technologies not yet accessible to the Cybernetic Consciousness.

So, what are we to do?

	25-11-2004 00:29									#344
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Assuming that you have not infiltrated the faction in question, as the possessor of the Empathic Guild, I'm able to inform you as to what techs should have been available. I suggerst you do a mid-turn save and email me that you have conquered a base and I will get back to you with the info.
The question is, should I wait till you select a tech before letting you know whether or not it's available for transfer to you by one of us?

	25-11-2004 01:07									#345
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Net Warrior, if I understand you correctly I should NOT be entitled to information on whether or not a given 'stolen' technology from an AI player is available for transfer by a 'human' player. And unless I have infiltration or other means of knowing about available human technologies I should NOT have access to this information.

Also, assuming I lack information on available 'human' technologies I should NOT have the option of having a specific technology transferred from a 'human' player. This would reveal information that I was NOT supposed to know about. Additionally, I should not be able to know if a 'human' player does not have access to these technologies.

The best we can do, I think, is to ignore AI technologies unless the situation specifically allows for transferring technologies without revealing any additional information.

	25-11-2004 05:07									#346
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I don't think I agree with you, Rubin. I think you're being too hard on yourself.

If you capture technology "X" from an AI, it is true that you does not--at that particular moment--know whether any given human player has that technology. As soon as you have the technology, however, you could offer to trade it to me, at which point you will discover that I do or do not have that technology. I can't think of a reason I should object to having the Governor or Empath Guild Master telling me that Rubin has captured tech X from the AI and because I have tech X that I am to transfer it to him.

Of course, given my tech position, there is very little risk that that will ever happen!

Am I missing something?

	25-11-2004 05:22									#347
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2172 to Cult

So, Chip, I think you're saying the same thing I am....if we can pass an AI tech on to Rubin then we should, right? I was just trying to avoid letting Rubin know in advance, before he selected a tech, which ones would be available from us. Do we all agree that this step is prudent?

	25-11-2004 07:37									#348
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Chip, I must have completely forgotten about the ability, via the diplomacy sceen, to assert if a human player has technologies that I have acquired too. To this, Net Warrior's suggestion seems appropriate.

I then suggest that I pick a technology from the list of AI technologies available to steal. If no human players have access to this technology then this technology may perhaps go to a pool of technologies that the Cybernetic Consciousness is entitled to acquire upon discovery by a human player. This may work somewhat like a special Planetary Datalinks--so to speak. This is my preferred approach to compensate for the lack of the tech-steal ability.

Alternatively, I simply inform Net Warrior that I have captured a base and based on the availability of human technologies Net Warrior shall oversee that a technology is tranferred to me.

I am not interested in knowing in advance which technologies are available for immediate transfer. So, to alleviate this Net Warrior could perhaps randomly choose a human technology that is to be transferred.

Should we lack human Governorship and human control of the Empath Guild our CMN may perhaps help us.

Oh, and Chip, last time I checked you were indeed in the technological lead on Chiron! Did you miss that perhaps?

	25-11-2004 09:40									#349
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Turn to Googlie.

Of the two options, my preferences are the same as yours. The other approach gives you access to technologies that the humans have, but the AI has not researched, which I do not think would be appropriate.

As to my having the tech lead, I assure you that it is not my fault! Given my research rate, once I get my next tech, it will be a LONG time before I research another.

	25-11-2004 10:18									#350
	Inflate your Upload Space

Chip, perhaps I was being unclear: The second option would allow Net Warrior to choose one or more technologies that both the AI AND a human player have access to. Technologies that humans have, but the AI has not researched, should, of course, not be considered.

	25-11-2004 11:15									#351
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2172 to Rubin

Jonestown recreated on Chiron

Have fun guys

Googlie

	25-11-2004 12:02									#352
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Sorry Googlie, for throwing you into that kind of position. I thought at the time there might still be hope. Thanks for taking over for me-- it's good to see these guys able to continue at their customary pace.

	25-11-2004 15:28									#353
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2173 to Domai.

A dark year on Chiron has passed...

	26-11-2004 18:54									#354
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turn to Cult

Let us pray that we will hence forth live in peace and plenty here on Chiron.

Peacekeepers, the Free Drones will miss you!

	27-11-2004 06:01									#355
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2174 to Domai. Upgrade in progress.

	27-11-2004 22:00									#356
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2174 to Cult

	28-11-2004 01:15									#357
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2174 to Rubin.

	28-11-2004 06:08									#358
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2175 to Domai. Upgrade complete.

	28-11-2004 20:25									#359
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2175 to Cult,

Prime Function Ruby, congratulations on you impending breakthrough, the Longevity Vaccine. Well done!

	29-11-2004 05:11									#360
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Turn to Rubin.