16-11-2004 23:12									#301
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Gentlemen,

We need to resolve this issue. Having considered the comments very carefully I have reached this conclusion:

1) Replay the Free Drones turn without any midturn saving.

2) IF the three of you can agree on a different solution then I shall accept this. Otherwise, IF anyone objects to a Free Drones replay then our CMN is to rule on this matter. The CMN ruling is final.

(Note: I could post my thoughts on this matter but I fear this would only complicate the issue; however, I shall gladly elaborate if requested. We also need to decide how to deal with the voting mechanics in the future--no matter how this particular election issue is resolved; that is, how we deal with elections in the future should not have any impact on the current issue.)

	17-11-2004 04:14									#302
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I agree with Rubin.

I hope my comments were not read to suggest that anyone has done anything improper, because I do not believe that to be the case. I, in particular, want to note that I have no objection to a "mid-turn save", so long as it does not affect the environment that player sees during his turn.

Shoot. I bet Googlie joined because he believed this was going to be a fast-paced game. It will get better, I promise!

	17-11-2004 04:19									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Chip_Buckner Shoot. I bet Googlie joined because he believed this was going to be a fast-paced game. It will get better, I promise!

It'll certainly get faster if those evil ruthless cyborgs eradicate my peaceloving faction

GGLIE

	17-11-2004 04:42									#304
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I hate to drag my feet here, but before I decide anything, I'll like a ruling on whether or not we've encountered a bug.

Also, since one prospective Governor is at war, it seems to me that we all have a vested interest, one way or the other, to a lesser and greater degree, in the outcome of the election. Maybe we should just let the CMN decide.

However, if the 3 of you say replay, then we'll replay, case closed.

	17-11-2004 06:08									#305
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Net Warrior, having further considered the available information, I believe this election feature is a bug. However, the game (including the multiplayer part) has many bugs; some which indeed can be exploited. Some of the bugs/exploits have been taken care of in additional game rules (house rules) while other bugs we just have to live with...

quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior Also, since one prospective Governor is at war, it seems to me that we all have a vested interest, one way or the other, to a lesser and greater degree, in the outcome of the election. Maybe we should just let the CMN decide.

If what you are implying here is the case then our CMN should decide NO MATTER WHAT! Discussing a game event like this in the context of personal interests is a pointless waste of time. If we cannot trust each other to set aside personal in-game interests when dealing with a bug (or perhaps feature) issue like this--then I have nothing more to say on this election issue!

	17-11-2004 06:29									#306
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Geez, I feel as thought I've gotten myself into hot water somehow. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Let me try once again to clarify. 1) if it's a bug then I vote for a replay. 2) If it's not a bug, then I don't understand why we are even talking about a replay. I guess I'm missing something.

	17-11-2004 06:30									#307
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I have no problem with NW replaying the turn and voting for Zak. That was my intent when I first called elections (and when I passed the turn on, there was no way I could win)

I don't see it as a bug, so much as the unfortunate consequence of lack of programming foresight. It can only happen in a year when one of the vote-affecting SP's get completed, and then only when the game is saved during that event's turn.

The program's intent clearly is that the vote gets cast upon first opening the turn

	17-11-2004 06:46									#308
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Ok, so that's Googlie, Chip, and Rubin for the replay. I'll get started on it right away. Please keep in mind that there will be at least 3-4 replay messages attached to this.

	17-11-2004 07:45									#309
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Ok, we're back on track. 2167 (with many reloads) to Cult

	17-11-2004 08:34									#310
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I am glad that we have settled the issue and look forward to playing M.Y. 2167. There are 2 issues I would like to address:

1) Net Warrior: Even if the 'changing of candidates' is not a bug, you did report it as a 'weird event' and held back the turn until we found out how to deal with this event. We've encountered something similar in Laptop I:

In Laptop I our kind CMN had flagged Hab Complexes as objectives in order to improve the AI. An unforseen side-effect to this was that bases with Hab Complexes could not be obliterated. I captured several bases deep inside enemy territory with the intent to obliterate them immediately. I sold off the most expensive base facilities before obliterating the bases and found, of course, that I was unable to obliterate the bases with Hab Complexes. I brought this issue forward and it was decided that I was allowed to reload the turn and sell the Hab Complexes in order to be able to obliterate the enemy bases. This end result was in accordance with how we 'thought' the game would behave. Technically, I made a mistake by not selling the Hab Complexes first time around but we agreed that this technicality was an exception to 'normal' mistakes.

Hence, when we encounter something unexpected we present the issue to all players. It is my understanding that we strive to preserve the 'original' intent of the game whenever this is possible, fair and reasonable. The 'original' intent may difficult to procure and may be affected by our personal perception of the game in general. Several of the paragraphs in our set of House Rules reflect this (i.e. crawler upgrades, social engineering switching within turns, player contact in the early game, colony pod pop boom, etc., etc.).

My point is that it is valid to discuss whether or not to replay a turn on the sole basis of unexpected/weird events--even if the unexpected event is not caused by a bug in the game (or not viewed as a bug).

2) We need to decide how to handle future election issues. Specifically if we are allowed to change votes midturn. I am undecided on the issue.

(A possible third issue: Since Zakharov was removed as candidate after the Free Drones midturn save will Chip be able to vote for Zakharov during the Cult turn? Or is this 'changing of candidates' only caused by midturn saving? If the midturn saving has no impact on the 'changing of candidates' then Googlie is our new governor, correct? )

	17-11-2004 09:45									#311
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I abstained from voting again, and did eveything else just as before too. I did get a less favorable result during an artillery bombardment of a native MW, but the other 2 the ramdom events when pretty much as before.

I agree, we'll have to decide on our new house rules once we here from Chip about which candidates survived. If Zak is there for Chip then my turn was bugged. If Domai is there for Chip then my turn was not bugged, correct?

	17-11-2004 09:56									#312
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I just loaded the turn. My options were Googlie and Domai. I abstained. Zakharov was retained.

Thus, it appears that even if Net Warrior had played straight through, I would not have had an opportunity to vote for Zak. Logic tells me that this is a bug.

	17-11-2004 10:13									#313
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Turn to be sent, in a minute or so, to Googlie.

Zak has initiated the Planetary Datalinks.

	17-11-2004 11:21									#314
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Ok, it occurs to me that there is a part of this election which I do not understand. Since Zakharov was retained his votes must somehow have been preserved even though he was no longer a candidate. Hence, it is entirely possible for a 'removed' candidate to win the election. Is this correct?

Oh, and Googlie voted for Googlie, I voted for Zakharov, Net Warrior voted for Googlie and Chip abstained; is this correct? Also, did the AI votes change after the new candidate was introduced?

quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior If Zak is there for Chip then my turn was bugged. If Domai is there for Chip then my turn was not bugged, correct?

Haha, I believe the correct answer to this is "no", both turns are bugged, though, the bug is consistent through both turns. According to Googlie's information we should be able to reproduce this event. Thus, this is a 'special feature' of multiplayer elections and that is why we may need to discuss how to handle the issue in the future.

	17-11-2004 16:35									#315
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For the record, I abstained from voting all 3 times.

Now I think the only glitch was that my vote count didn't double after the midturn save. This leads me to believe that the ability to vote again after the midturn save is the bug. Therefore we should not be allowed to change our vote at that time. So, bottem line, 1. there was no need for a replay, and 2. you may not change your vote during a midturn save.

	17-11-2004 21:12									#316
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I agree with Net Warrior.
Yesterday I agreed with Rubin.
Googlie, would you say something non-controversial so that I may agree with you?

	18-11-2004 05:27									#317
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Zak elected Governor

2167 to the Cycon

	18-11-2004 09:06									#318
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Oh, I can agree with that!

	18-11-2004 19:22									#319
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2168 to Domai.

I did encounter something unexpected this turn and I've informed our CMN. There is no point in delaying the turn, though. The possible glitch was not beneficial to me and it should not affect other players.

	19-11-2004 07:16									#320
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Turn to Cult.

Another glitch; these are trying days here on Chiron!

	19-11-2004 08:11									#321
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This just in

Released in Vidtheatres all over UN Headquarters:

The Glitch who stole Christmas

	19-11-2004 09:37									#322
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Turn to Googlie.

	20-11-2004 00:16									#323
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2168 to Rubin

An explanation fro the reload message has been sent to Darsnan.

	20-11-2004 03:01									#324
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2169 to Domai.

Still nothing conclusive regarding the unexpected event during M.Y. 2167. I may have to hold next turn (M.Y. 2169) until I hear from Darsnan again.

	20-11-2004 06:09									#325
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turn to Cult

	20-11-2004 08:11									#326
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Just browsed the last couple of pages of this game, looks like a lot of fun. Thought I'd comment on your recent election issues though....

When an election is called, all votes from all candidates are frozen, and cannot move up or down. That means that if you open a turn with an election window open, all your pop increases that turn are not counted in your votes. Also, any extra votes from the EG or clinical immortality built during your turn (After the vote was called by a previous player), are not counted. Saving mid turn and reloading will not affect this.

However, what can change is the candidates up for election. In your case, Net Warrior suppased Zak in votes during his turn, and so had the election been called then, Googlie and Net Warrior would have been the choices. So when the turn passed round, the game re-looked at all populations, and put the top two up for election. This is a bug.

Votes are locked, but candidates are not. Votes are kept for ex-candidates though, so yes, an ex candidate can indeed win an election.

It can leave some interesting situations, such as the initial candidate receives a pounding after the vote is called, and so is no longer a candidate. Nerve gas election flyers anyone?

	20-11-2004 09:35									#327
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Chaunk: Thank you for elaborating on the election issue!

So, votes are fixed; candidates are not... Since retaining the original canditates was impossible during this election I believe we should accept this feature of the multiplayer game. However, I do tend to believe that we should refrain from saving midturn during elections and thus be unable to change votes midturn (or have the opportunity to vote for a different candidate). Can we agree on this?

Googlie: Perhaps you can send my next turn (Cybernetic Consciousness, M.Y. 2169) to Darsnan as well?

	20-11-2004 11:21									#328
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Turn played and back to Googlie.

	20-11-2004 19:10									#329
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2169 to Rubin, with a copy to Darsnan

	23-11-2004 00:29									#330
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

2170 to Domai.