02-06-2004 09:24									#91
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP "Great Britain and Iceland had the 'Cod Wars' in the 1970s." Tell me more.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/RRGP/CodWar.htm

Hard to believe a dispute over cod, but there you are- it's the cod's honest truth.

Singapore is enlarging itself by dredging operations off Indonesia, if I recall, resulting in what some Indonesian villagers and fishermen call an environmental catastrophe, as fishing grounds are polluted and coastal villages flooded, and fresh water supplies polluted:

http://www.singapore-window.org/sw02/020906au.htm

	02-06-2004 09:36									#92
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Facinating.

If fishing rights can lead to stuff like this between two Cold War allies, then anything could happen now. During the Cold War everyone was supposedly focused and united around one goal of containing the USSR.

Now, without that specter, anything could happen.

Maybe Ireland and the UK will go at it.
Or perhaps photos of Berlisconi in a compromising position with Schroeder's wife are discovered and all hell breaks loose.

	02-06-2004 09:41									#93
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Yes, but those were nationalistic wars. Europe seems to have moved beyond that type of nationalism. Also, wasn't the Ruhr a major resource area under contention?

It's only a matter of time before Europe starts hating the French again.

	02-06-2004 09:44									#94
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I hear there is still some long standing animosity between Hungary and Romania. Maybe that'll flare up.

Or maybe the Greeks will royally f up the Olympics this year, and everyone will just pile one.

	02-06-2004 20:48									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Muslims are sneaking into our countries, and still supporting terrorism. That's why they are not true (western/civilised) Europeans.

you'd have to not be welcoming them with open arms for them to be sneaking in.

	02-06-2004 20:49									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident was that in response to my 9/11 remark? we can make another thread about it if you want. But I've discussed this in a thread in 2003. or was that 2002? They have a right to defend their culture against America.

Then by that logic we have a right to glass them.

	02-06-2004 21:04									#97
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quote: Originally posted by axi The world's first (and the only memorable) direct democracy has plunged all by itself into a war that lasted 30 years and led the state in question from superpower status to end up under a gruesome dictatorship. Athens, 5th century B.C., The Peloponesian War So do not be so confident about democratic or liberal regimes.

Liberal democracy. Liberal. Not in the sense of "Left-wing", but in the sense of a free society, as well as the absense of the kind of nationalism seen in the first half of the last century and before (yes, I know that nationalism in some forms still exists in the US and Europe, but it's of a different character).

And even democratic Athens had an aristocracy.

	02-06-2004 21:11									#98
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I disagree with EST that the Great War was the fault of a few individuals. That may have been the proximate cause, but the real reason is because their societies were of a certain character.

The only way I can see a European war happening would be one to preserve the European Union. It seems inevitable that under any federal system, the question of sovereignty will come up and must be decided by force of arms.

	02-06-2004 23:20									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident hell, I think September 11 was justified. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to believe most muslims beleive the same way I do.

You are insane. Killing anyone is never justified.

	03-06-2004 00:41									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha I think America went to war with both france and England in the 1800s, most of the action was just ship skirmishes though, excepting the war of 1812.

a democratic peace theorist would deny, I think, that England before the first Reform law was even close to a democracy. Parliamentary rule != democracy, if parliament isnt democratically elected.

	03-06-2004 00:44									#102
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom http://www.britains-smallwars.com/RRGP/CodWar.htm Hard to believe a dispute over cod, but there you are- it's the cod's honest truth.

a "war" fought entirely by ramming, with no one killed. If all wars were "fought" like that, id be VERY HAPPY.

	03-06-2004 00:48									#103
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Hell, we impound Euro fishing vessels all the time. They just don't have the balls to send their navies after us.

	03-06-2004 01:15									#104
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quote: I may be wrong, but I believe no 2 democratic nations have ever gone to war (and I can't think of any at the moment),

Not really true. Off the top of my head, the Brits bombed the Finns during WWII, there's Croatia vs. Yugoslavia in '91, the India-Pakistan war after independence, and the recent one in '99 (just prior to the Musharraf coup). Then there's, for instance, the Boer War and the ACW (as well as ancient Greek wars) but the franchise was limited in these cases. And arguably the Spanish-American War counted, as does WWI. And then there are various wars against natives.

	03-06-2004 01:19									#105
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Spain was a monarchy, Ramo...

	03-06-2004 01:19									#106
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Yes, so is the UK. It was a constitutional monarchy.

	03-06-2004 01:24									#107
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I thought Spain was much less "constitutional" and much more "monarchy" then...

	03-06-2004 01:27									#108
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No, the monarchy didn't have that much power at the time. The reason why I said "arguably" is that the parties were corrupt with essentially the same policies and they basically handed off power to each other.

	03-06-2004 01:40									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Spain was a monarchy, Ramo...

It all comes down to the question what we see as a democracy. Kant, who argued that people in a republic (he wasn't a big fan of a democracy since he understood "democracy" a bit differently from our modern view) would be very reluctant to go to war said the key point for this would be if a system is really representative.

Equally I would ask if a system which is technically democratic is really democratic (in our sense) so that the people (and not only some elites) have real political influence. In case of pre-WWI Germany I think there were still a lot of un-democratic elements (as I posted somewhere above). In case of other Euro countries I do not know the details so well (maybe someone can post more about it), but generally the time of the full integration of the entire people in the democratic systems was not achieved in the 19th century, simply because most political parties were nothing more than debate clubs this time. They simply were not able to reach the majority of the people, and most of them were also not interested to represent all people. Politics was still a matter of elites this time, no matter if they were aristocrates or bourgeouis. This was only changed by big mass parties of the early 20th cent. and finally after WWII.

	03-06-2004 01:46									#110
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BTW, this all came up in the Civ3 forum way back when Civ3 wasnt out yet. There was a poli sci student from Slovakia, i think his nick was "roman", who argued the realist position - no impact of demo. My sense is that while the argument that demos NEVER fight each other is not correct, its still significantly less frequent. A lot does depend on definitions both of demo and of conflict. Wrt to Finland in WW2, while western allies declared war on Finland, there was no signicant fighting, if any IIUC. WRT to yugo conflict, theres real question if Yugo under Slobo should be called a democracy - and new born Croatia was hardly a settled democracy. India and Pakistan in '48 would also fall into the category of not really established democracies. Of course if you cut down too much, you dont have an adequate sample for analysis.

	03-06-2004 02:42									#111
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My theory is that sane nations don't fight each other. Sane nations are much more likely to be democracies than insane nations are because insane nations have a fetish for dictators.

Hence, it is much more likely for dictatorships to fight each other than it is for democracies.

	03-06-2004 03:04									#112
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currently, undere 18's don't have the vote, nor criminals and the insane. So I suppose we still don't really have any democracies, so war is likley to break out at any moment ....

	03-06-2004 03:10									#113
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under 18 should not have a right to vote. *

AFAIK criminals can vote here ( unless your civil rights are taken away which, again AFAIK, only happens on very rare occasions.

Not idea on the insane though.

* we have a party here that is suggesting to give parents an extra vote per child here

	03-06-2004 03:12									#114
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Criminals have the vote in Canada (even the ones currently in prison). And all somebody has to do is to be able to prove that they can understand and answer the question (so even those who are delusional have the right to vote).

	03-06-2004 03:15									#115
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Criminals have the vote in Canada (even the ones currently in prison). And all somebody has to do is to be able to prove that they can understand and answer the question (so even those who are delusional have the right to vote).

BTW, Harper is promising to rob them of their right.

I don't expect him to be able to push that one through even if he does get the minority, but then again the only promise they won't break if they get elected is that of cutting taxes.

They won't be able to cut them as far as their fairyland leprechaun friends tell they can, so I guess they'll break that one too.

	03-06-2004 03:17									#116
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quote: * we have a party here that is suggesting to give parents an extra vote per child here

The UK govt. is going to give the vote to 16 year olds

as a side note, the voting age should be increased to 24 imo. But my post was largley ironic, in that any example anyone puts forward is pooh pooh'd on some pathetic technicality, ie. no democracy in the terms the modern day wester world has understood it in the last 50 years has fought a major war. And if they did it wasn't a proper war, so there

	03-06-2004 03:18									#117
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man The UK govt. is going to give the vote to 16 year olds

huh?

	03-06-2004 03:21									#118
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun huh?

The irony is most 16yr olds, to my knowladge, have said it wonm't work and they don't want it

	03-06-2004 03:21									#119
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Criminals have the vote in Canada (even the ones currently in prison). And all somebody has to do is to be able to prove that they can understand and answer the question (so even those who are delusional have the right to vote). BTW, Harper is promising to rob them of their right. I don't expect him to be able to push that one through even if he does get the minority, but then again the only promise they won't break if they get elected is that of cutting taxes. They won't be able to cut them as far as their fairyland leprechaun friends tell they can, so I guess they'll break that one too.

The Supreme Court has already decided that the government does not have the right to take the vote away from criminals. So Harper can blather all he wants, but unless he's able to amend the Constitution (something no PM has ever managed to do) he has no say on whether or not they vote.

	03-06-2004 03:22									#120
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man The irony is most 16yr olds, to my knowladge, have said it wonm't work and they don't want it

Man, that is ****ed up.