31-05-2004 23:24									#1
	Will there ever be another major war between European powers again? Inflate your Upload Space

Let's face it. Those were the best wars, in a war is bad sorta way .

Is this european unity thing for real? Yes I know there have been small wars involving some south eastern former commie countries. But I was talking more of major countries with powerful militaries such as this:



yes I used that image in another thread, I couldn't resist using it again

Has the world grown so small that europeans now do not bicker over their differences and unite behind loose cultural ties? I believe it has.

The United States does not seem interested in war with anyone other than the middle east. The U.S. has moved to a point where they aren't likely to bicker over countries with cultural ties such as in Europe and Asia (aside from N. Korea- there are still unsresolved issues...). I can't see any wars with anyone other than the middle east. Let's face it. There are serious cultural conflicts here. Eventually it's going to come to a head. A major war seems inevitable. This war may not be typical though, it may involve something else... But that is the U.S., not Europe.

In any case, europe seems to want to stay out of such cultural conflicts. this is probably best. They have no need to mess with the middle east. And they have no interest in fighting with each other.

Have they just beaten the war and hostility out of each other over the last millenium and a half or so? Are they pacified?

discuss.

Last edited by Dis on 31-05-2004 at 23:38

	31-05-2004 23:31									#2
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I wouldn't say pacified, per se. It's just that Europeans in general don't see anything worth fighting each other over militarily that is worth the cost of the conflict. Same goes for most of the industrialized world. Basically, it comes down to if the other side can hit back in any signficant way, it probably isn't worth it.

	31-05-2004 23:38									#3
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I agree, not pacified per se. I'd disagree however that it is just a matter of military balance. One cannot ignore the experience of two world wars taking place on European territory (yes not only there, but in the biggest intensity).

	31-05-2004 23:38									#4
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War is so 1940s. We have the Eurovision cong contest now. It makes everyone too embarassed to start a fight

	31-05-2004 23:38									#5
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But thats even worse than war!

	31-05-2004 23:52									#6
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Yes, Russia's long-awaited plan to conquer the rest of Europe.

	01-06-2004 00:08									#7
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Europe's reasons for war with each other have declined. These are not the times of national expansion, but rather national improvement. Resources no longer provide the impetus that they once did as trade has made them easily accessable. Trade itself has become a major factor in lowering the risk of war in Europe. The decline of nationalism and the growth of regionalism is leading Europe in directions that noone could have envisioned a generation ago. Rapid transport and instantaneous communication play their roles as well.

Is war over forever in Europe? Who can say? The next generation may be as different from this one as this one is from the previous. But it certainly doesn't look likely in the near future.

	01-06-2004 00:20									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I agree, not pacified per se. I'd disagree however that it is just a matter of military balance. One cannot ignore the experience of two world wars taking place on European territory (yes not only there, but in the biggest intensity).

Military balance plays a huge roll in combination with today's weapons, and that ties directly into the last two world wars. It is now (and it basically became that way just prior to WWI, maybe even the US Civil War) impossible to wage war without massive destruction and loss for all parties unless one side has a huge military advantage. This is why NATO can gang up on Serbia without much thought, but France and Germany wouldn't have at it. There would be so much smoking rubble and so many dead bodies on both sides of that type of conflict that any "victory" would be hopelessly offset by the losses getting there. Which is exactly what you would have thought WWI had taught us, but apparently we needed WWII to really drive that point home.

	01-06-2004 00:23									#9
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I don't know if I agree that military balance plays a "huge roll" in their being no European wars. What reason would France and Germany have to go at it for?

	01-06-2004 00:25									#10
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War is no fun when everyone dies.

Which is why all the "good wars" happen now between either disparate sides (like the Iraq war), or between third world states, like the Ethiopia-Eritrea war or the mess in Congo.

	01-06-2004 00:26									#11
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I may be wrong, but I believe no 2 democratic nations have ever gone to war (and I can't think of any at the moment), so as long as Europe remains a Europe of Democracies, I don't believe war will occur.

The fact is, Mass Education (to a reasonable level) means people chose governments which don't lead them into war .. on the whole .. not without good reason anyway.

So in order to answer the question, id say, what are the chances of a European power's democratic system being toppled .. and a dictatorship being installed ? Which ones are most likely ??

I hear that the UK army during the 70's had contingency plans to overthrow any socialist govt .. had it turned red !!! or maybe this is just common sense and all army's do it ???

	01-06-2004 00:30									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy I may be wrong, but I believe no 2 democratic nations have ever gone to war (and I can't think of any at the moment), so as long as Europe remains a Europe of Democracies, I don't believe war will occur. The fact is, Mass Education (to a reasonable level) means people chose governments which don't lead them into war .. on the whole .. not without good reason anyway. So in order to answer the question, id say, what are the chances of a European power's democratic system being toppled .. and a dictatorship being installed ? Which ones are most likely ?? I hear that the UK army during the 70's had contingency plans to overthrow any socialist govt .. had it turned red !!! or maybe this is just common sense and all army's do it ???

the south and north in the U.S. civil war

	01-06-2004 00:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I don't know if I agree that military balance plays a "huge roll" in their being no European wars. What reason would France and Germany have to go at it for?

what reason did they have to fight each other back then?

the reasons for WW1 and WW2 weren't very good.

	01-06-2004 00:34									#14
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They were excellent reasons dammit

WW1- making sure those damned Frogs/Huns knew what was good for them!

WW2-making sure everyone knew the superiority of the German Nation.

	01-06-2004 00:35									#15
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Yes, but those were nationalistic wars. Europe seems to have moved beyond that type of nationalism. Also, wasn't the Ruhr a major resource area under contention?

	01-06-2004 00:37									#16
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NO-the only bone of contention was Alsace-Lorraine. The Frogs knew the HUns had the Ruhr full of little Huns.

	01-06-2004 00:39									#17
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American war was a civil war !!

	01-06-2004 00:43									#18
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy American war was a civil war !!

Even that could be called a nationalistic war.

	01-06-2004 00:56									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy I may be wrong, but I believe no 2 democratic nations have ever gone to war (and I can't think of any at the moment), so as long as Europe remains a Europe of Democracies, I don't believe war will occur. The fact is, Mass Education (to a reasonable level) means people chose governments which don't lead them into war .. on the whole .. not without good reason anyway. So in order to answer the question, id say, what are the chances of a European power's democratic system being toppled .. and a dictatorship being installed ? Which ones are most likely ??

Actually, pre-WW1 germany was very democratic I beleive, and the German Constitution in the 20's is, to my mind, one of the most democratic there has ever been - it elected Hitler of its own accord. Democracy won't stop war at all.



Further more, the UK pre-WW1 did have, or was developing, a mass educational system (compulsory schooling had come in in the 1870's i beleive). And I have heard many say that Germany had the best system of Social Welfare at that time (SDP were v.popular, I think they were in power in 1914 aswell, but not to sure.)

	01-06-2004 01:30									#20
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy American war was a civil war !!

I was going to say the American war of independence. Both groups of combatants were recognisably democratic to a fair degree. But then I thought, was the American war of independence akin to a civil war? And if so, why not consider a European war of the future a civil war.

	01-06-2004 01:41									#21
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I would say the War of Independence was a civil war. If I recall, most colonists actually still favored staying with the crown at the beginning of hostilities.

	01-06-2004 01:59									#22
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War is a recurrent event. There's no way ever to be safe 100%.
About the military balance: In the past there have been many wars in which both sides were about equally strong, and yes indeed they caused a lot of damage to eachother, but it did not prevent a war.

The only thing that scares off is a nuke or something similar.

	01-06-2004 02:23									#23
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Liberal democracies do not go to war. It has nothing to do with resources or anything - it's just that everyone wants to just play nice. The competition occurs at a different level.

I can see one war in Europe's future though - the European Civil War

Basically, as the EU becomes more federalized (this is inevitable), eventually there will be some issue over which the losing side feels strongly enough about it to secede. Either the Union will effectively dissolve (once you've established that someone can secede, the laws have no real force) or they'll have to go to war to keep it together. The only way to avoid this is for the EU to become a national government before this occurs, and even then it could happen.

	01-06-2004 02:41									#24
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What about the Putin?

	01-06-2004 02:50									#25
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I would say no if it wasn't for that 1-ton gorilla-in-a-cage called Russia.

BTW: wasn't WWI Germany somewhat democratic?

	01-06-2004 02:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I agree, not pacified per se. I'd disagree however that it is just a matter of military balance. One cannot ignore the experience of two world wars taking place on European territory (yes not only there, but in the biggest intensity).

Well, the lessons of the Thirty Year War were only honoured for a century or so. Afterwards, it was back to business as usual.

Hopefully, modern education can alleviate mass idiocy and prevent war.

	01-06-2004 03:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Hopefully, modern education can alleviate mass idiocy and prevent war.

Note to the Neocons: Those who do not know history are bound to repeat it.

	01-06-2004 03:36									#28
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Sitting here in the UK, the idea of going to war against Germany seems as remote and distasteful as re-invading Wales.

I mean, that's just not the way things are done anymore.

	01-06-2004 05:26									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the south and north in the U.S. civil war

The government of the confederacy was more of a plutocracy than a democracy.

	01-06-2004 05:38									#30
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I'm of the firm belief we are never that far away from a general war. All it takes is something stupid to happen, and then several idiots to make stupid decsions in response to it.