03-06-2004 03:23									#121
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What's funny is that the NDP has projected budgets that get less net swing from current surplus than the Conservatives do.

	03-06-2004 03:24									#122
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BTW -- why do you put a smilie at the end of almost all of your posts, KH??

	03-06-2004 03:26									#123
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Because I'm able to get away with more when I do so.

	03-06-2004 03:28									#124
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Plus I'm generally pretty happy.

	03-06-2004 04:27									#125
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man But my post was largley ironic, in that any example anyone puts forward is pooh pooh'd on some pathetic technicality, ie. no democracy in the terms the modern day wester world has understood it in the last 50 years has fought a major war. And if they did it wasn't a proper war, so there

Your points are open to criticism as anyone else's points, aren't they?

	03-06-2004 04:42									#126
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yeah, and their points are open to counter-critiscism

Though I must say, the counter-counter-criticism left alot to be desired

	03-06-2004 07:48									#127
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man The UK govt. is going to give the vote to 16 year olds as a side note, the voting age should be increased to 24 imo. But my post was largley ironic, in that any example anyone puts forward is pooh pooh'd on some pathetic technicality, ie. no democracy in the terms the modern day wester world has understood it in the last 50 years has fought a major war. And if they did it wasn't a proper war, so there

It seems this latest part of the thread missed my critical distinction - it has to be a liberal democracy. That implies a lot about the society in addition to the literal form of government.

	03-06-2004 07:49									#128
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Man, that is ****ed up.

Not at all. I'd be horrified if people my age got the vote.

	03-06-2004 07:56									#129
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war is inevitable for europe in it's current situation. sure, maybe not for a quite a while but resources are still limited and population pressure at minimum will eventually rear it's ugly head. you'd really need global population control to stave off war. in the west this is happening already but it will lead to war as we are the only ones this is happening to. we weaken but others continue to grow, thus increasing their power and need for our resources. population growth estimates for 2050 are ****ing scary. i can't imagine how wars couldn't happen in europe and probably most everywhere else too. our current situation is a fluke - we are the same as our war mongering ancestors even if we try with all our intellect to deny it.

	03-06-2004 08:01									#130
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War is not caused by resource conflicts (usually; there are exceptions), it's part of the nature of most human societies.

	03-06-2004 08:02									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich War is not caused by resource conflicts

wrong

	03-06-2004 08:16									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Not at all. I'd be horrified if people my age got the vote.

I'd be horrified if you got the vote too.

	03-06-2004 08:20									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Sava wrong

It's wonderful how selectively quoting people can completely change their points.

	03-06-2004 08:22									#134
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Were you ever called something different? If so, what were your previous usernames?

	03-06-2004 08:22									#135
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skywalker

	03-06-2004 08:25									#136
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Ah. It's beginning to fall together now.

	03-06-2004 08:37									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Not at all. I'd be horrified if people my age got the vote.

um . . . .


I meant that it's ****ed up because teeangers will get to vote.

	03-06-2004 09:27									#138
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Oh, OK then

	03-06-2004 09:42									#139
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Now that the smoke has cleared out of your head, onto other things.

	03-06-2004 15:25									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich It seems inevitable that under any federal system, the question of sovereignty will come up and must be decided by force of arms.

It is true that nation states have regularly decided issues that arise between them through wars.

But that is just what has happened in the past. Whether it happens in the future or not will be decided by us.

There is no "must" about it.

Nor do we lack for an alternative choice. Because it is not only nation states who engage in disputes. On the contrary individuals and groups routinely find themselves at odds with other individuals and groups. Disputes are commonplace. And such disputes - unlike those between nation states - are not resolved by armed conflict.

Instead the parties find an impartial (and hopefully wise) person to arbitrate between them. Indeed we go further and devise codes of law which both help to limit the number of disputes and encapsulate such wisdom as we have so as to facilitate the process of resolving those which nevertheless arise.

This is not special to any particular place or race, it has been universal in human society for a long time.

There is no reason at all why the process cannot be extended so as to be employed in disputes between nations.

And there are some signs that willingness to submit to a rule of law is gradually emerging among nations. Signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights have accepted the judgement of the European Court of Human Rights for many years now, a court enforces the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and we are beginning to establish international tribunals which judge the actions of political leaders who step outside the bounds of our common humanity.

There is even a slight movement towards acknowledging a moral force in UN resolutions. I have noticed that people now talk of actions which breach a resolution as "unlawful".

You pick on the disputes which can arise between states which enter a federation. Of course the civil war in the USA is an instance of federated states falling out so badly they go to war with each other. But federation is actually something which is done to reduce the likelihood of such conflict. And which is mostly succesful in doing so. Employing the same means - a system of law and arbitration to resolve disputes between an individual state and the federation at large.

The European Union is a sort of federation and that is the place in the world where the process of nation states submitting to a rule of law has been taken the furthest. Progressively more of the legal advice I give is advice about Europe wide law which binds the governments of all European countries as well as binding individuals.

To take the view that there always have been war so there always will be seems to me to be timid. Based on an altogether too unambitious view of our species. We have advanced an incredibly long way in just a couple of thousand years. And the pace at which we continue to advance is breathe taking. Off the back of that we are fully entitled to take an ambitious view about our capabilities and our future prospects.

There are challenges to face. The stars beckon and meanwhile we must be sure that we do not inadvertantly wreck our beautiful planet. Learning how to live together without war is certainly one of the challenges.

It is not beyond us.