01-06-2004 02:41									#1
	vox thread number xx: communism Put an end to popups!

quote: Vox Controli Communism Offer Greetings to Arrian, asleepathewheel, DeepO and the many fine people of Gathering Storm. Within the next two turns we will complete research of the technology of communism and we are inquiring about your interest in this technology. If your team is interested we can discuss a deal. Vox Controli is currently interested in other technology, gold, and options on 20 turn luxuries. We look forward to hearing from you. Regards, Rhoth

Any thoughts? I've responded to rhoth by saying I would post this and get back to him..

	01-06-2004 02:44									#2
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Trading them a lux would be an interesting proposition, as then they would have to break the deal to go to war with us...

otoh, communism isn't worth much to us at all, I'd think... police stations? doubtful utility.

	01-06-2004 02:56									#3
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police stations: do they diminish only corruption, or also waste?

I've got 2 places where waste diminishers would be helpful: WoC and Elipolis. Other then that, we don't need courthouses

Sleepy, do you take this contact from here? I'm not sure who is ambassador to Vox, I've suddenly got very little time

DeepO

	01-06-2004 03:03									#4
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I was always confused on how exactly p.s's function. Especially considering the various changes to the corruption calculations...


I can run with this, I have enough spare time to deal with them, just not a consistent chatting time.

	01-06-2004 03:26									#5
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where's alexman when you need him

DeepO

	01-06-2004 03:49									#6
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indeed.

I haven't engaged him much in the past, have you/would you feel comfortable pming him the question on what they do in ptw1.27?

	01-06-2004 03:51									#7
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I reckon we can use Police Stations up north - they reduce waste as well as corruption. Not as much as in C3C but we'd notice it in WoC.

We should consult the Guru, though. Does someone want to PM Alexman? I'll do so if no-one who knows him better steps up.

	01-06-2004 03:51									#8
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er, crosspost...

	01-06-2004 03:55									#9
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I daresay you have the go ahead with that pm, assuming DeepO hasn't yet...

	01-06-2004 04:05									#10
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No, go ahead. And give him my regards

DeepO

	01-06-2004 06:06									#11
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I am much less interested in Communism than in providing a lux (more than one?) to Vox...

	01-06-2004 21:10									#12
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AFAIK, Police Stations reduce corruption and waste the same way Courthouses do, and then also reduce war weariness.

The north could definitely use some PS's. Hmm, actually, let me think about that... in how many cases will it actually help us? DeepO's got things optimized so that each city is geared toward producing a particular number of shields so that we are efficient in our unit production.

Police Stations might help out some of our northern cities, but will they be worth a) whatever we have to pay Vox to get communism; and b) the build time?

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future. Hhhrrrmm.[/Yoda]

-Arrian

	01-06-2004 21:52									#13
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In the North, there are only 2 big producers, the rest is mostly commerce. We could use a PS in WoC, to get more out of our IW. That's for certain. I don't know the numbers exactly, but it can for certain be a 1-turn tank pump, probably even without mob. But, as it is now, that city swallows most of the surrounding shield tiles from its neighbours, and there is not much land to begin with.

The only other city who could really use a PS is Elipolis. It already has a CH, and is in WLTKD, but waste is rather severe.

I'm not certain, but I think for those 2 cities combined, it could mean some 50spt or so (especially because it won't loose shields). At a ratio of 1 gold per shield, that means 1000 gold for a return time of 20 turns. At most.

WW is something else to consider, of course. Especially in cities where we depend on WLTKD for waste battling, losing happiness would mean a lot. The two main cities where this would happen would be the two previously mentioned cities...

Oh, there are a few other cities who would benefit from a PS, but that's more for the added commerce. I don't remember how much a PS costs, but my guess is that it will be too costly to spend any resources on, and we better build some ships and attackers instead. We can't get sidetracked building stuff while Lego is getting its defense up.

DeepO

	01-06-2004 22:29									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO We can't get sidetracked building stuff while Lego is getting its defense up.

amen brother DeepO

What about trading them a lux for it, furs, perhaps. It might be fun to see them break that agreement once we declare war on lego. The flipside of that is, of course, we would take a hit declaring on them, but I can't foresee that being a necessity, ala bobian war. Can't likely block the sea tiles...

	01-06-2004 22:40									#15
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We can offer them 2 lux, if needed.

I've got the save open right now, and it seems WoC is always able to get to 80 spt in WLTKD, probably even to 100 spt if we build a hospital (for the extra 2 spt it gives, in WoC 2 spt in tiles means 6 spt in output (before waste). A PS could most likely get it to 1-turn destroyers (120spt), though, which would be nice.

Oh, PSs cost 160 shields

And one remark: if we trade lux to Vox, we have to include a statement that they are not allowed to trade it on to other parties. If we spot that, all deals are off.

DeepO

	01-06-2004 22:43									#16
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how do you trade a traded for lux?

	01-06-2004 22:51									#17
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I'm not sure if it is possible in PBEM, but in SP, you can offer the lux you receive from civ A to civ B. You lose it yourself, of course, but AFAIK, nothing prevents you from asking for another lux from Civ A.

Vox can't trade our furs to Lego, of course...

DeepO

	02-06-2004 01:54									#18
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Erhm... my calculations Re: WoC are totally off. It has 19 unwasted spt before the IW (7 waste). 38/14 after. 57/21 with factory built. Maximum, it can make 90 spt before waste(need hospital), meaning most likely 80 spt even without a PS (but in WLTKD). That's one rifle/turn, or 1 battleship every 3. It can't get to 90 spt with a PS, and 85 doesn't give anything else.

However, it's close: if e.g. it would make 79 spt after waste without a PS, a PS would be most helpfull. I don't know how to do the preciese calculations for corruption, though.

DeepO

	04-06-2004 05:55									#19
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alexman's answer on WoC PS here

	04-06-2004 06:07									#20
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so is it worth it? are other cities effected so drastically?

	04-06-2004 17:22									#21
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The effect on WoC sounds nice.

Then again, will we really get WLT*D up there, even once we attack Lego? Are we still exchanging 1 luxury with them? If so, won't the loss of that trade drop the city back out of WLTKD. If not, WW would eventually do that, wouldn't it?

-Arrian

	04-06-2004 20:10									#22
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right now, with the factory ready, WoC would make 99 shields uncorrupted. This should rise to 114 after hospital? Not sure, have to look at the save to see it.

Alex gives 24% as PS / WLTKD waste, meaning 86 spt. without PS, this is (31%) 78.66. with a PS, we can build 3-turn battleships, 1-turn arts, rifles, or fighters (I think, don't know the exact shieldcost of fighters). So if these numbers work out, it is worth a lot to us to build a PS there.

And yes, we can get to WLTKD at size 14. It would be a waste from one point of view to not use all the commerce in the coast tiles, though... without a PS, and without WLTKD, we get to 66 spt (2 turn destroyers, 4 turn battleships), but would make a lot more bpt or gpt.

DeepO

	04-06-2004 20:11									#23
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Oh, and WW would hit the city with unhappiness, but we have to keep in mind that we're going to need the happiness slider once we invade, no question about that.

DeepO

	04-06-2004 22:16									#24
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so should I offer 2 luxes, furs and incense for communism? Can we do that, I don't have the latest save for some reason...

	05-06-2004 02:57									#25
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we can offer 2 lux, and if they go with that, it's fine by me. much more is not really helpful for us...

DeepO

	05-06-2004 04:13									#26
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Is that an ok, then?

	05-06-2004 05:04									#27
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For me it is. However, I doubt they'll go for it, but we can always try... personally, 2x2 lux (so 2 lux for 40 turns) would also be okay for me, but don't tell them that right away

DeepO

	05-06-2004 06:12									#28
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I'm not so OK with a 40 turn offer, given our warplans... it seems a little false. But 2 lux for 20 turns is fine, if they go for it.

	05-06-2004 06:47									#29
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Vos is asking for 20-turn lux deals, which can start whenever they ask for it. Of course this has to come with some sort of agreement that lux deals are not one sided NAPs, and the promise of future lux deals can't be interpreted as eternal NAPs if the lux is never asked for.

I'm not okay with giving them a 40 turn deal when we know that in less then 40 turns we're going to attack them (which we aren't, BTW. We're attacking Lego), but what they are asking more or less assumes we can break it for war.

BTW, one very specific thing to look out for (I mentioned this before, but just in case...): Lux we trade to them are not to be given to other parties, they can't be traded on! (i.e. can't go to Lego)

DeepO

	05-06-2004 08:21									#30
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Yes, we will be attacking Lego, but the geo-politcal alignments indicate war with Vox as well. I know you are saying the same thing, DeepO.

Agreed with the further trading restriction... most don't know that is possible, and it is an important codicil. Although... ... is there some subtlety whereby we supply Lego with a lux once-removed, and going to war unexpectedly screws them up? (/end Department of Dirty Tricks)