03-06-2004 13:46									#61
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quote: * DinoDoc refuses to continue argueing with Atahualpa because it's going to be a long and frustrating conversation with a brick wall.

	03-06-2004 15:35									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie On a side note, Moore made an interview with that Berg guy in Iraq before he was kidnapped and beheaded. It was not included in this movie, though, and he has agreed with the family not to show it anywhere else.

That's strange, because Michael Berg Hates America, too.

	03-06-2004 15:50									#63
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On my birthday

	03-06-2004 15:56									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The point is that no matter what the loony left says this is in no way censorship.

Do you know for a fact that Moore does not have any kind of contractual obligations with Miramax for this film?

	03-06-2004 16:45									#65
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Just saw the film's trailer. Let me put it this way; the film will hardly leave its audience unaffected.

Could this so called censorship-debate be any more predictable and boring? Yes, it can hardly be seen as censorship as it's not the state that tried to stop the film. But one the other hand, isn't it quite obvious that the company tried to stop the film for its message, not depending on its profitability? Shouldn't this be a case for concern? M. Moore's film will get out, but he's famous (the top of an ice berg?). Isn't the cultural and political debate quite bland and boring if only 'safe' films and documentaries are distributed?

	03-06-2004 17:14									#66
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd That's strange, because Michael Berg Hates America, too.

He's a wierd one. Am I the only one that finds his conviction that the murderers admired his son as they were sawing his head off a little on the cuckoo side of things.

	03-06-2004 17:44									#67
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quote: Isn't the cultural and political debate quite bland and boring if only 'safe' films and documentaries are distributed?

I agree, that's exactly the point I was trying to explain?

quote: es, it can hardly be seen as censorship as it's not the state that tried to stop the film.

Read some definitions of censoring and censorship. Nowhere does it say that the state has to play any role.
From Merriam-Webster Online:

quote: One entry found for censorship. Main Entry: cen·sor·ship Pronunciation: 'sen(t)-s&r-"ship Function: noun 1 a : the institution, system, or practice of censoring b : the actions or practices of censors; especially : censorial control exercised repressively 2 : the office, power, or term of a Roman censor 3 : exclusion from consciousness by the psychic censor

and on censoring:

quote: One entry found for censor. Main Entry: 2censor Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/ : to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable

What we have here is the attempt to suppress objectionable information. Why is it so ridiculous to call it censorship?

	03-06-2004 17:56									#68
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* DinoDoc decides to try talking with the brick wall

Why exactly do you feel that I should put out your movie (to use you as an example) if I really don't want to?

	03-06-2004 18:02									#69
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quote: Just saw the film's trailer. Let me put it this way; the film will hardly leave its audience unaffected.

I hope it will stand up to its reputation. Bowling for Columbine did touch me a lot. Especially those scenes from the Highschool massacre. It was real. I remeber I was close to crying in cinema, half angered and half sad. Who doesnt wish he could have been there to pump those idiots full with lead? Half of me certainly wished I could. I was too frightened to watch it a second time, knowing that I couldnt escape those extreme feelings again.

Anyway, also Marylin Manson made good points in the interview.
Though at some point it felt like an advertising movie for canada. He could have toned that down a bit.

Nevertheless I think I gave it 9/10 on imdb.

	03-06-2004 18:17									#70
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I'd say that "Roger & Me" is better than "Bowling for Columbine". Sure, it has an obvious bias like all his productions. But as I see it, a bias is usually much more controlled when you work with a somewhat more limitied subject than violence in america or the US foreign policy under Walker Texas Ranger (in the case of "Roger & Me", the effects of the actions of GM in the city of Flint).

	03-06-2004 18:17									#71
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quote: Why exactly do you feel that I should put out your movie (to use you as an example) if I really don't want to?

Why do you relate this to yourself?
You are not important and you have no influence. You have no control and no power.

Disney on the other hand has and its not so much "doesnt matter" anymore with them. The bigger a company becomes and the more power it has, the more responsibility it has and the more it should act for a "common good" than solely for their own good. I think big companies have some kind of educational responsibility and the more pluralistic such an education is the better. The more they try to show you just one option, the worse.
Thats my opinion and I think thats a bearable disadvantage for big companies.

Of course this is hard to put into laws and I probably dont want it that way. I just feel its not good if you have power and influence that you try to steer the waggon all your way, thats not democratic.

	03-06-2004 18:20									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Why do you relate this to yourself?

Thanks for reminding me why I said I'd stop this line of conversation earlier.

	03-06-2004 18:21									#73
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I was also touched by Bowling for Columbine.

But when I learned about the bald lies it contains I was annoyed.

An annoyance substantially deepened by Moore's hideously two faced justification.

He is a creep and I decline to be manipulated by him again.

	03-06-2004 18:24									#74
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quote: Thanks for reminding me why I said I'd stop this line of conversation earlier.

Dont blame me, if you fail to make a point. I have made good points yet, you just troll around.

	03-06-2004 18:25									#75
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Btw, why don't you go and see the trailer at the films website ? Bush is the obvious star as usual.

There's two scenes I find particulary funny. First, there's the scene where he's holding a speech for the club of the filthy rich (or something) in toxcito and all and says "some call you the elite, I call you my base.". And base translated into arabic is? (if it's a intented joke, it's great. If it's not....). The other one is the last scene where Bush stands on the golf course, speaking out against terrorists and ends it all with "now watch this drive!" (something for Ming I guess)

Last edited by Kropotkin on 03-06-2004 at 18:35

	03-06-2004 18:29									#76
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My bandwidth is limited to 3GB per quarter and I only have ~500MB left for this month.

	03-06-2004 18:51									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa What we have here is the attempt to suppress objectionable information. Why is it so ridiculous to call it censorship?

Um, no, it's not an attempt to do so, as has been explained. Disney didn't suppress or delete anything. If that was their aim, why on earth would they have sold the rights back to the Weinsteins?

They just didn't want to release the movie under their aegis. And that's the perogative of every private business. I think it was a bad business move, but it's hardly something to start screaming "censorship!" over.

	03-06-2004 18:59									#78
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quote: Do you know for a fact that Moore does not have any kind of contractual obligations with Miramax for this film?

Does that matter? Is every breach of contract case censorship? I don't think so.

quote: isn't it quite obvious that the company tried to stop the film for its message, not depending on its profitability? Shouldn't this be a case for concern?

In Disney's mind it did depend on profitability. Disney wants to market themselves as a non-offensive company to everyone. I guess they figured in the long run releasing this movie would hurt that image that they have cultivated.

quote: Um, no, it's not an attempt to do so, as has been explained. Disney didn't suppress or delete anything. If that was their aim, why on earth would they have sold the rights back to the Weinsteins? They just didn't want to release the movie under their aegis. And that's the perogative of every private business. I think it was a bad business move, but it's hardly something to start screaming "censorship!" over.

Well put . If Disney was 'censoring' this film, they'd prevent anyone else from releasing the movie, but that isn't the case here. They have nothing against Moore, they just don't want his controversial film to be under their banner.

	03-06-2004 19:08									#79
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Boris to the rescue!

	03-06-2004 19:15									#80
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quote: Um, no, it's not an attempt to do so, as has been explained. Disney didn't suppress or delete anything. If that was their aim, why on earth would they have sold the rights back to the Weinsteins?

You are right they did. I should have used past tense, sorry.

Just think that I am referring to a hypothetical situation. The discussion is still valid under those circumstances.
It was their movie right? IF they choosed to keep and hide it, some people still think that would be okay, because its their property after all, while I think its not.

The way Disney acted now that they sold it, is okay. If they dont want to publish it, at least they should give the chance to someone else to do it. (that goes to DinoDoc's question as well if he still bothers to read)

	03-06-2004 19:17									#81
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quote: If Disney was 'censoring' this film, they'd prevent anyone else from releasing the movie, but that isn't the case here.

true, its not the case here.

To my defense I want to say that I posted under the assumption that they did not sell it, kept it and trashed it. Under this assumption I think its valid to use the term censorship given the definition for this word.

	03-06-2004 19:33									#82
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I think Moore is rich enough to start his own distribution company. But this talk of censorship fits him like a hand in a glove, to prove how evil the big corporations are.

	03-06-2004 19:48									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa To my defense I want to say that I posted under the assumption that they did not sell it, kept it and trashed it. Under this assumption I think its valid to use the term censorship given the definition for this word.

That's why the thread was titled "Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" gets US release date."

	03-06-2004 19:53									#84
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quote: But this talk of censorship fits him like a hand in a glove, to prove how evil the big corporations are.

Bingo! He's playing this as propaganda.

	03-06-2004 19:58									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's why the thread was titled "Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" gets US release date."

Not only that, but Atahualpa's first post in the thread notes how he's looking forward to see it, so I don't see how he can claim he was under the impression Disney had suppressed and "trashed" the film.

I hear the furious sound of backpedaling...

	03-06-2004 20:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa true, its not the case here. To my defense I want to say that I posted under the assumption that they did not sell it, kept it and trashed it. Under this assumption I think its valid to use the term censorship given the definition for this word.

Disney has every right to censor its product. They could have bought and buried this movie, and it is their right to do so. In the USA, the government does not have the right to do what private citizens or companies can do. It seems to me that you're caught up in a word that is changing definition i.e. 'censorship' is coming to refer to only government actions.

	03-06-2004 20:13									#87
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I'm surprised by some of the people who dont appear to appreciate Moores docudramas.

	03-06-2004 20:24									#88
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I really don't care to hear any blabberings from any extremists -- left or right.


And this notion of censorship, as others have already pointed out, is ridiculous.

	03-06-2004 20:28									#89
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Moore makes entertaining movies, simple as that. I've yet to not be entertained by his films. He knows what he's doing in the filmmaking department, and all the advance reviews say that this is his best film to date. So I'm there.

	03-06-2004 20:33									#90
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to each his own