03-06-2004 20:44									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not only that, but Atahualpa's first post in the thread notes how he's looking forward to see it, so I don't see how he can claim he was under the impression Disney had suppressed and "trashed" the film. I hear the furious sound of backpedaling...

I argued with DinoDoc's generic question of a company having all rights to do whatever they want with the products they own.

To make this Disney case fit the generic case I put it under the assumption that they did wreck the movie.

Its all consistent and logic

	03-06-2004 20:45									#92
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Disney has every right to censor its product. They could have bought and buried this movie, and it is their right to do so. In the USA, the government does not have the right to do what private citizens or companies can do. It seems to me that you're caught up in a word that is changing definition i.e. 'censorship' is coming to refer to only government actions.

Tell that those people who make english dictionaries

	03-06-2004 20:45									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa I argued with DinoDoc's generic question of a company having all rights to do whatever they want with the products they own.

But, as SpencerH points out, the companies do have a right to dispose of something they own as they see fit. I mean, you do know about the concept of private ownership, yes?

	03-06-2004 21:05									#94
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I really don't care to hear any blabberings from any extremists -- left or right.

Michael Moore

	03-06-2004 21:15									#95
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I wouldn't call what Disney did, "censorship" necessarily. I think it might be "attempted censorship"... but it seems as if they just didn't wanna touch it with a ten-foot pole. If they try to prevent Moore from releasing it with another distributor... then I'd go so far as to accuse Disney of censorship.

Michael Moore

	03-06-2004 21:15									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui In Disney's mind it did depend on profitability. Disney wants to market themselves as a non-offensive company to everyone. I guess they figured in the long run releasing this movie would hurt that image that they have cultivated.

So? Obviously Disney has some sort of motive for their actions. Do you think states enforce censorship for fun? But is this the place to have a philosophical talk about that (is there such a thing as alturism and infinitive regress and blablabla...)? The point is that they stopped the documentary for its political implications (and for the long term effects this might have for their profits) and this is -imho- a case for concern.

	03-06-2004 21:20									#97
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quote: The point is that they stopped the documentary for its political implications (and for the long term effects this might have for their profits) and this is -imho- a case for concern.

'IMHO' is the crucial phrase. Because in IMHO, it isn't a cause for concern in the slightest . Just like if Disney refused to support a documentary which they felt glorified Communists or Nazis wouldn't cause any concern for me.

	03-06-2004 21:35									#98
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Comparing Moore's bias to that of nazis is just childish. It's taught in the 101-course of lame debating techniques.

	03-06-2004 21:45									#99
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Actually it isn't a childish comparision. It's a question of consistency. Why would it cause concern that Disney refused to support Moore because of politics but it wouldn't cause concern that Disney refused to support a film which it felt praised Nazis or Communists. Wouldn't that be because of politics as well?

	03-06-2004 21:54									#100
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Yes, Disney wants to keep their reputation family-friendly, which is why they own Miramax in the first place?

	03-06-2004 21:55									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Just like if Disney refused to support a documentary which they felt glorified Communists or Nazis wouldn't cause any concern for me.

And what about capitalists?

	03-06-2004 22:08									#102
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Yes, Disney wants to keep their reputation family-friendly, which is why they own Miramax in the first place?

good point

	03-06-2004 22:18									#103
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quote: And what about capitalists?

What about them? Put them in that quote if you want. The end answer is still the same.

	03-06-2004 22:22									#104
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Imran: Consistency or not, It concerns the width of the political debate in a democratic society*. I claim (yes, my humble opinion) that a society where a company feels that they cannot affort (in a broader sence of the word) to distribute a documentary that's critical of the current administration's foreign policy is a poor society from a democratic point of view. Yes, many democratic societies puts a limit on what they accept in the public debate, some even outlaws the expression of some opinions (like violent antisemitism). So perhaps you can call that for inconsistency, but it's still a childish argument. Michael Moore's opinions are clearly within reasonable limits in a open society. And yes, perhaps Disney has every legal right to stop a production if they want to but I think it's a shame that they would want to.


* and spare me the "USA is a republic, not a democracy"-speech as it's not relevant for this issue.

	03-06-2004 22:32									#105
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quote: a society where a company feels that they cannot affort (in a broader sence of the word) to distribute a documentary that's critical of the current administration's foreign policy is a poor society from a democratic point of view.

quote: Michael Moore's opinions are clearly within reasonable limits in a open society.

I find it interesting that you find the distancing of Disney from Moore to be a poor society from a democratic POV (let's not even get into the fact that Disney refused to touch 'The Passion' with 50 foot pole), but then you want to set 'reasonable limits' in an open society. I think it is a poor society from a democratic POV which wants to set 'reasonable limits', which is code word for blocking some forms of political speech which the society is uncomfortable with. Free speech is the cornerstone to a 'good' society in a democratic POV. Silencing one group while saying that PRIVATE entities should not be able to distance themselves from another is very worrying in a democratic POV, IMO.

	03-06-2004 22:37									#106
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Imran's right.

	03-06-2004 22:53									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And what about capitalists? What about them?

They would've been a wiser substitute for nazis.

	03-06-2004 22:54									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Imran's right.

Even if he is right, do you HAVE to make his ego even bigger than it is already?

	04-06-2004 01:54									#109
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quote: Silencing one group while saying that PRIVATE entities should not be able to distance themselves from another is very worrying in a democratic POV, IMO.

Where the **** did I say that they should not be able to do so?! I just said that it's a shame that a company thinks it's a risk to distribute a documentary with a controversial point of view. I did not in any form state that shouldn't have the right to do so. While on the subject, I'm not at all at the side of Moore because of his opinions, the same would hold for Gibson's Passion.

And every society has some forms of limits for what can or cannot be said in public. Moore's are, nazi opinions are probably not. I'm not the one that have decided those limits (as you seem to asume), it's society. Do you think Moore's opinion are unacceptable in your society? Do you compare it to the advocation of genocide or slavery? Your talk about consistency has very little to do with the real world.

And that Sava agrees with you just proves my point!

	04-06-2004 02:33									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Where the **** did I say that they should not be able to do so?! I just said that it's a shame that a company thinks it's a risk to distribute a documentary with a controversial point of view.

It's a shame that they simply don't want to take sides in politics?

	04-06-2004 02:37									#111
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quote: I just said that it's a shame that a company thinks it's a risk to distribute a documentary with a controversial point of view.

Why is it a shame if that is the public view they are going for? Democracy is about being able to have different points of view on how you want to be percieved. It's a basic component of democratic society.

quote: And every society has some forms of limits for what can or cannot be said in public.

What should, not what can (if we are talking about political expression). Nazi opinions can be said in public, but most people don't like it and don't think some people should be able to say it. Of course, IMO, I think that's BS. They should be able to say it and they should say it if that is what they believe.

	04-06-2004 02:56									#112
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If I was Moore, I would get myself filthy rich, then buy Disney and shut all it's operations down. Or even better, convert it into a porno movie distributor.

	04-06-2004 03:19									#113
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If they didn't want to distribute the film then why did they pay for him to make it in the first place? surely it is immoral to steal a year of someones life that he spent making the film. At any point at the start when they heard what the film was about they could have said 'Well we're not giving you money to make that'.

If you really believe in Freedom of Speech then the opinions that you have to agitate to have heard are the ones that society finds most offensive.

	04-06-2004 04:20									#114
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs If they didn't want to distribute the film then why did they pay for him to make it in the first place?

They didn't, Miramax did (AFAIK). Disney is the parent company of Miramax. When they Disney execs got wind of what Moore had made, they decided they didn't want anything to do with it (which was well over a year ago, btw). So they told Miramax they couldn't release it.

	04-06-2004 09:32									#115
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quote: If I was Moore, I would get myself filthy rich, then buy Disney and shut all it's operations down. Or even better, convert it into a porno movie distributor.

Do you have ANY idea how much Disney is worth?

	04-06-2004 09:34									#116
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quote: Do you have ANY idea how much Disney is worth?

At the current rate, he might be able to afford it after this next movie.

	04-06-2004 09:46									#117
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs If they didn't want to distribute the film then why did they pay for him to make it in the first place?

Disney told Moore a year ago thier stance on the movie. Miramax continued to pay for the movie over the objections of Disney.

	04-06-2004 12:29									#118
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quote: I just said that it's a shame that a company thinks it's a risk to distribute a documentary with a controversial point of view.

I don't agree, in a democracy people should be free to vote with their money too and that's what drove Disney's decision - fear of offending a large number of potential customers. Obviously this can result in boycotts of products some people want and a reduction in availability but it's far better than the state deciding what we can watch or use - that would be a real shame.

Don't complain about Michael Moore and Disney, complain about the FCC and Howard Stern et al - that's censorship... And then we have people like Bill O'Reilly who make their living by offering opinions trying to justify the censorship by pointing to the spector of a Nazi radio station spewing hate. So only certain ideas should be allowed, that, according to Bill O'Reilly, is what the 1st Amendment protects...

	04-06-2004 18:59									#119
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Here's the Trailer for my fellow terrorists and america haters.




I love the expression of the congressman's face when moore asks him to encourage his children to enlist and help out in Iraq.

	04-06-2004 20:21									#120
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I love the expression of the congressman's face when moore asks him to encourage his children to enlist and help out in Iraq.

However, the congressman is complaining that Moore edited out his response, which was that he would be glad to help do so, and that his own two kids were in the military, one of whom was on his way to Afghanistan. That's what Kennedy (the congressman) says, anyway.