 |
| |
|
|
molly bloom
|
 |
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
For the record, usually people use quotation marks or other notation to denote quotes, you had that phrase inline with another paragraph of your own. Has no one taught you this before?
|
For the record, your first set of sprawling contradictory statements are within quotation marks in the relevant post.
Your second quote is in inverted commas.
There is nothing you can teach me about writing, except perhaps, how not to construct an argument, or read a post or profile.
'As for sit down and talking with molly or Agathon....I find them both so, so, so, so uselessly boring that it would kill me.'
There's an invitation to surprise you with a telephone call if ever I heard one. Perhaps I could convince Agathon to make it a conference call, I mean, we'd want to be certain....
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
 |
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
Exactly Boris! This once again supports my contention, that snobbery springs from generational issues. Artists and musicians are always reviled and misunderstood by the current generation in power, and it takes a generation to bring these artforms to a point where people can snobbishly defend them as high culture (or conversely appreciate the true genious of them). |
Of course, some artistic greatness is predicated on creating something new, something that the contemporary elite would not approve of. This is what Beethoven, Wagner and Mahler did. But there's another kind of artistic greatness that is built upon mastering already accepted forms. This is the realm of Bach, Mozart and Brahms. Can we say objectively that one was better than the other? No, as all made magnificent contributions to music, if in different ways.
That it's a generational issue is natural. Welcome to the history of artistic expression. Keep in mind that the "traditionalists" like Bach and Brahms suffered as much derision in their day from avant-garde proponents as Wagner and Mahler suffered from stodgy traditionalists. It's a constant tug-of-war, and as far as I'm concerned, both sides have merit and produce valuable results. I am happy to have both Mahler and Brahms, thank you very much.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Asher
|
 |
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
For the record, your first set of sprawling contradictory statements are within quotation marks in the relevant post. |
It's not in quotes near the end, which is all I read (I don't re-read my own posts). You used it inline with your own words, period...
quote:
There is nothing you can teach me about writing, except perhaps, how not to construct an argument, or read a post or profile. |
I could also teach you how to avoid a comma splice.
quote:
'As for sit down and talking with molly or Agathon....I find them both so, so, so, so uselessly boring that it would kill me.'
There's an invitation to surprise you with a telephone call if ever I heard one. Perhaps I could convince Agathon to make it a conference call, I mean, we'd want to be certain....
|
Yes, that'd show me. Call me long distance from Australia, teach me a lesson...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Asher
|
|
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Believe it or not, the only impact they have on your life is the amount of time you allow yourself to be angry about it. If you just accept the fact that there have always been, and always will be, a group of people more interesting in maintaining touch with a dead past than in generating a living future, you'll rest more easy.  |
But look how uppity they get once you call them out on it. It's free entertainment, man.
One thing you should know about me: I don't get upset with these kinds of threads, no matter how they turn out. It's some perverse amusement for me to argue with people like Molly, Agathon, MrNiceGuy, etc.
There's something about them that is just comical genius to me. Plus, it's an experiment in role playing and generally being silly. I'm toying with an extreme version over at CG these days. 
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Asher
|
|
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Firstly, if you did, you might be able to revise them and construct arguments that cohered, and secondly, no you couldn't. |
I really do hate your liberal use of, what is the word, oh yes, that is the word, commas, because sometimes its a bit absurd, no, stupid.
quote:
At least you succeed at something. |
I succeed at a lot of things. For example, trolling you.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Spiffor
|
 |
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Which doesn't explain the popularity of opera in working class communities in South Wales, for instance. Or explain why gold miners in Victoria in the 19th Century would willingly part with large sums of money to pay people to come from Europe and entertain them. I don't believe that in either instance one can attribute it to either group wishing to ape the standards of the elite. |
The genre can be loved by people regardless of their class or culture. Heck, even uncultured youngsters as my geeky friends are enthralled by the opera singers' voice in Nightwish, or hip-hop songs featuring Montserrat Caballé.
However, at least in France where it is ridiculously expansive, opera is a "standard" of the elite: i.e a cultural standard to which the wanabee elites try to conform when they're not especially into the genre (but don't mind enough to be in open opposition against it)... and to which the elites "naturally" conform, just the same way a geek "naturally" conforms to the Hitch Hiker's Guide, or a pre-teen "naturally" conforms to the latest idol.
quote:
Who are these 'elite' anyway? And how do they 'set' the cultural standards? |
The 'elite' is a relatively heterogenous group, that is marked by a high education, a significant wealth, or both. They tend to occupy positions of cultural influence (be they artists, professors, newspaper owners / redactors, art patrons etc.)
It is not a big consipracy. Actually, the actual members of the 'elite' (and not the wanabee ones) generally don't purposefully strive for repeating the stereotype. It rather comes more naturally to them, since it has been either ingrained since childhood, or assimilated since the times they intended to feel 'elite'.
The main difference between the 'elite' and any other subculture is not elitism. Actually, every subculture I've encountered was elitist, and tended to regard others as somewhat (or blatantly) inferior. The 'elite' aren't the worst, far from it.
The main difference is that the 'elite' is sufficiently influent in society to have its cultural standards set as something worth striving for. In academia, classical culture (which is definitely not a trademark of blue collar culture) is rewarded. At work, the rewarded language is not street slang, but the kind of language that is natural to the upper-middle classes. The general press salutes "refined" culture and often reviles pop culture...
quote:
Did Pavarotti singing 'Ness'un Dorma' really become popular because football fans wanted to be the chairman of Deutsche Bank or because just possibly they recognised a trained voice when they heard it? |
Nope. Again, opera is a worthy musical genre in its own right. But part of the opera's clientele (especially in opera houses) are indeed wanabee members of the 'elite'. Just like part of the gothic music listeners do it for the feeling of bemlonging more than for the music.
quote:
Have you ever seen the film 'High Fidelity', Spiffor? It might give you an insight into musical snobbery and elitism which are not of the upper classes, nor anything to do with opera or classical music. |
As I said, elitism is definitely not a specificity of the opera / classical subculture (or 'elite' subculture, as it encompasses other forms of classical arts, knowledge, and language). Every subculture I encountered is elitist to some degree, and the 'elites' aren't even the worst.
The worst I've ever found were the l33t H4x0rZ
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:36.
Apolyton Time is 00:36. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
05-06-2004 09:57
|