05-06-2004 05:47									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Indeed, a healthy heaping of the classical music masterpieces revered today were not popular or even considered "good" when written. Bach's compositions were unsung for a hundred years after his death. Beethoven's later works were critically reviled and caused head scratching with audiences, but today are considered his greatest works. There's a great book I have called the "Lexicon of Musical Invective," which is a compilation of negative critical and popular reviews of famous composer's works. It's a great read, especially when the critics are spouting off about how Beethoven's 9th was a jumbled cacophony of unintelligible nonsense what would be forgotten even before Beethoven died. Hee!

Exactly Boris! This once again supports my contention, that snobbery springs from generational issues. Artists and musicians are always reviled and misunderstood by the current generation in power, and it takes a generation to bring these artforms to a point where people can snobbishly defend them as high culture (or conversely appreciate the true genious of them).

	05-06-2004 05:52									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Well that's a nice little strawman here. Having the most experience is not the same as running the show. There are other factors involved. Things like energy, drive, determination, just for starters. But even you conceded that people who are older have more experience. Hence this "ageism" is mostly rubbish.

I was responding to the strawman put forward by Caligasta. If you want to have a respectable position, I encourage you to actually see what I was responding to instead of talking out of your arse.

Never did I argue that youth don't have less experience. I argue that less experience doesn't equal incompetence, inferior reason, or less wisdom than adults. But this is totally besides the point of this thread.

	05-06-2004 05:54									#123
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quote: I, for one, see no reason to treat uncultured barbarians like actual human beings.

So much for communism benefiting the masses, eh?

	05-06-2004 05:59									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Flame away? I haven't hurled any insults have I?

This is an insult:

"OzzyKP -

You'll understand when you grow up...seriously."

The spirit of it was condescending, the intent of it was insulting.

quote: Not really. The elderly generally tend to lose some of their mental abilities. It's a natural part of the aging process that everyone recognises.

Mental abilities are seperate from experience. You were making a point entirely about experience. If this is a strawman, then admit it now, because if its mental abilities you want, then by all means say so. There is no disputing that some of 80 has twice as many experiences as someone who is 40. Its simple math.

Unless you want to argue (and I'd gladly welcome the argument) that the quality of experience of that 40 year old may be superior to the quality of that 80 year old's experience. Of course you can say the exact same thing about a 15 year old vs. a 40 year old as well.

But again, this is off topic for this thread.

	05-06-2004 06:02									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Hello Molly.

Not even close.

"
Most of the modern "cultured" people are pompous *****. I'm cultured, just in a different way than you are. I may not be able to recite the precise weight of any tenor in the past 500 years, but I am more connected to the modern culture than you ever will be.

Your culture of old has been replaced with electronic culture, you can accept that now or you can keep denying it.

Culture is in the eye of the beholder. What I'm cultured in will lead to sizable wealth and happiness, what you're cultured in leads to snobiness and arrogant queens.

Or, perhaps they see poetry for what it is -- an infantile waste of time void of structure, and the meaning is so cryptic that the true intention and true meaning of poems are left to guesswork and thesis writing of overly-paid British scholars at artsy universities who serve no purpose but to tell others what they think an irrelevant work from 400 years ago really means.

Cultured my ass, they're candidates for unemployment and street-life. No wonder so many of them are heavily left-wing, they depend on the real success of others to have a parasitic relationship with society, under the guise of contributing to society's "culture".

I'll tell you one thing -- what people like Bill Gates have done has had far more impact on today's culture than any contemporary poet. In fact, I don't think any contemporary poet has any relevance to today's culture, whatsoever.

FWIW, Molly, it doesn't work well to counter someone's argument about those who pride themselves in being so "cultured" to simply list off a bunch of overrated, ancient works and then laugh that other people don't give a sh*t about them."

'not that what I do is better than others.'

Asher Amnesiac


Umm, I wonder which Canadian chipmunk impersonator that can be, giving us his hierarchy of cultural values?

My 'culture' whatever that is, he states is inferior to his 'culture', because his is supposedly more connected with 'modern culture'. He has yet to accurately portray what my 'culture' supposedly is, but then confusing me with Urban Ranger is probably not a good place to start.

His 'culture' allegedly leads to wealth and happiness, mine leads supposedly, to snobbiness and arrogant queens.

And so on, ad nauseam, in posts full of ludicrous sweeping statements, misrepresentations and opinionated drivel, uncontaminated by the slightest contact with the works being commented upon.

You aren't even consistent in a single post, let alone a single thread.

	05-06-2004 06:42									#126
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The final word on the matter is that this is just another in a long run of Asher's whiny, drama-queen, pity party threads and he should be eternally grateful that someone as cultured as I am took the time to post. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a performance of Goethe's Faust to see.

	05-06-2004 06:51									#127
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Not even close. " Most of the modern "cultured" people are pompous *****. I'm cultured, just in a different way than you are. I may not be able to recite the precise weight of any tenor in the past 500 years, but I am more connected to the modern culture than you ever will be. Your culture of old has been replaced with electronic culture, you can accept that now or you can keep denying it. Culture is in the eye of the beholder. What I'm cultured in will lead to sizable wealth and happiness, what you're cultured in leads to snobiness and arrogant queens. Or, perhaps they see poetry for what it is -- an infantile waste of time void of structure, and the meaning is so cryptic that the true intention and true meaning of poems are left to guesswork and thesis writing of overly-paid British scholars at artsy universities who serve no purpose but to tell others what they think an irrelevant work from 400 years ago really means. Cultured my ass, they're candidates for unemployment and street-life. No wonder so many of them are heavily left-wing, they depend on the real success of others to have a parasitic relationship with society, under the guise of contributing to society's "culture". I'll tell you one thing -- what people like Bill Gates have done has had far more impact on today's culture than any contemporary poet. In fact, I don't think any contemporary poet has any relevance to today's culture, whatsoever. FWIW, Molly, it doesn't work well to counter someone's argument about those who pride themselves in being so "cultured" to simply list off a bunch of overrated, ancient works and then laugh that other people don't give a sh*t about them." 'not that what I do is better than others.' Asher Amnesiac Umm, I wonder which Canadian chipmunk impersonator that can be, giving us his hierarchy of cultural values? My 'culture' whatever that is, he states is inferior to his 'culture', because his is supposedly more connected with 'modern culture'. He has yet to accurately portray what my 'culture' supposedly is, but then confusing me with Urban Ranger is probably not a good place to start. His 'culture' allegedly leads to wealth and happiness, mine leads supposedly, to snobbiness and arrogant queens. And so on, ad nauseam, in posts full of ludicrous sweeping statements, misrepresentations and opinionated drivel, uncontaminated by the slightest contact with the works being commented upon. You aren't even consistent in a single post, let alone a single thread.

We have a winner!

I'm not commenting on specific works, you moron.

And you are a snobby, arrogant queen, so I don't see how you're countering my argument.

And that quote is from an old thread, where my only intent was to troll you. It obviously had quite an impact, if you remember it. I had forgotten about it. No wonder you didn't link it, you wanted to make people believe it was from a thread in the context of this one.

	05-06-2004 07:02									#128
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monkie:

"Culture which smooth the whole world licks, Also unto the devil sticks."

	05-06-2004 08:23									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Actually, Glonkie's right on this. There are different 'cultures'. Culture is simply a way of ordering one's life in collaboration with others, such that the group shares certain beliefs or ideals expressed by collaboration.

That seems to be an equivocation.

	05-06-2004 08:24									#130
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Well, what word am I equivocating on, UR?

It can't be culture.

	05-06-2004 08:26									#131
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I was responding to the strawman put forward by Caligasta. If you want to have a respectable position, I encourage you to actually see what I was responding to instead of talking out of your arse.

quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Never did I argue that youth don't have less experience. I argue that less experience doesn't equal incompetence, inferior reason, or less wisdom than adults. But this is totally besides the point of this thread.

How is less experience not the same as less competent or inferior, as far as to that particular task or job is concerned?

Furthermore, wisdom comes from experience, not your rectum.

	05-06-2004 08:29									#132
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I think enjoying the humanities, art, classical music, good food, enjoying those for the sake of enjoying life is awesome.

However, I agree with Asher that it's ridiculous to look down upon people because they aren't "cultured."

	05-06-2004 08:30									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, what word am I equivocating on, UR? It can't be culture.

quote: Main Entry: 1cul·ture Pronunciation: 'k&l-ch&r Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin cultura, from cultus, past participle 1 : CULTIVATION, TILLAGE 2 : the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education 3 : expert care and training 4 a : enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training b : acquaintance with and taste in fine arts, humanities, and broad aspects of science as distinguished from vocational and technical skills 5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation 6 : cultivation of living material in prepared nutrient media; also : a product of such cultivation

It seems to me that Asher and you are mixing up 4a and 5b.

	05-06-2004 08:31									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not commenting on specific works, you moron. And you are a snobby, arrogant queen, so I don't see how you're countering my argument.

Cut out the insults.

	05-06-2004 08:34									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Cut out the insults.

Those were his words, not mine. If he can refer to himself as that, so can I.

	05-06-2004 08:35									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It seems to me that Asher and you are mixing up 4a and 5b.

You're making no sense.

	05-06-2004 09:20									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Those were his words, not mine. If he can refer to himself as that, so can I.

'what you're cultured in leads to snobiness and arrogant queens. '

They were your words: I quoted them.

'It obviously had quite an impact, if you remember it. I had forgotten about it. No wonder you didn't link it, you wanted to make people believe it was from a thread in the context of this one.'

More amnesia?

I can remember getting dog turd on my shoe- doesn't mean it made an impact, just makes me more careful of where I tread.

Yet again, you jump to conclusions, as you have done throughout this thread and others- you clearly have no idea of what I was doing, but trying to get people to believe that your rambling, incoherent contradictory statements from a previous thread were from this thread, is so far from the truth, I feel sorry for you.

'I'm not commenting on specific works, you moron. '

Again with the insults, but this is par for the course for you- I mentioned four SPECIFIC works of literature and you dismissed them as being overrated and ancient- although you had little or no experience or understanding of them.

You seem to have some serious problems with age as you'd know that a work's antiquity is no measure of its worth or relevance- as anyone who had read Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' could tell you.

	05-06-2004 09:22									#138
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom They were your words: I quoted them. More amnesia?

I would be lying if I said my mind is in its natural state these days.

For the record, usually people use quotation marks or other notation to denote quotes, you had that phrase inline with another paragraph of your own. Has no one taught you this before?

quote: Again with the insults, but this is par for the course for you- I mentioned four SPECIFIC works of literature and you dismissed them as being overrated and ancient- although you had little or no experience or understanding of them.

That was in a completely different thread a long time ago. Link it for me, I forget what I said to troll you...

I recall dismissing them, but only because I read Canterbury Tales in school and found it a total bore, and the other three I can't remember.

quote: You seem to have some serious problems with age as you'd know that a work's antiquity is no measure of its worth or relevance- as anyone who had read Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' could tell you.

Actually, I have read that, back in my armchair-general days.

I don't have any charming or witty quotes that are vaguely related to what I'm talking about, but I do know 41 year old men are past middle-aged.

	05-06-2004 09:28									#139
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Insulting people for disagreeing with you is so uncultured, you idiots

	05-06-2004 09:30									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Insulting people for disagreeing with you is so uncultured, you idiots

It's the culture of idiocy, Elder Tassadar.

	05-06-2004 09:30									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Classical music/opera bores me senseless - there is no beat and nothing compelling about the music.

You should realize you haven't a clue as to what you're saying, as ALL music has a beat, especially classical. Do you think that man waving his stick in front of the orchestra is just for show?

That you find nothing compelling about a certain form of music is a personal, subjective thing. Plenty more people DO find something compelling in classical music, which is why it still sells. The problem isn't that there isn't anything compelling, it's that you're not as yet capable of being compelled by it. That speaks more of you than of any music form.

	05-06-2004 09:31									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Actually, I have read that, back in my armchair-general days. I don't have any charming or witty quotes that are vaguely related to what I'm talking about, but I do know 41 year old men are past middle-aged.

Thus, we see the difference between the verbs to read and to understand.

If you knew anything about me you'd understand that references to my age (which you eventually got right, but only after I corrected you) have no effect on me whatsoever.

'I don't have any charming or witty quotes'

Something you at last managed to get right, even though it was only about yourself- your favourite subject.

	05-06-2004 09:31									#143
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amazingly enough i agree with teddy striden



edit: even though im cultured

	05-06-2004 09:36									#144
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Thus, we see the difference between the verbs to read and to understand.

I feel the need to throw this quote from you into your wrinkled face:

quote: Yet again, you jump to conclusions, as you have done throughout this thread and others- you clearly have no idea of what I was doing, but trying to get people to believe that your rambling, incoherent contradictory statements from a previous thread were from this thread, is so far from the truth, I feel sorry for you.

How would you know how well I understood it? Once again, you've just indirectly proved my point. I didn't like Canterbury Tales, so surely that's because I didn't understand it only. Silly simpletons.
(edit: Or, looks like you meant Art of War -- I'm not sure why you don't think I understand that, either)

quote: If you knew anything about me you'd understand that references to my age (which you eventually got right, but only after I corrected you) have no effect on me whatsoever.

The reason I got your age "wrong" is because your birthdate is 1969 according to your profile. Amazing what people will do to pretend to be younger, and then forget that they tried to do it due to the memory lapse from old age.

quote: Something you at last managed to get right, even though it was only about yourself- your favourite subject.

Actually, Microsoft is my favorite subject. Are you new here?

	05-06-2004 09:37									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How is less experience not the same as less competent or inferior, as far as to that particular task or job is concerned? Furthermore, wisdom comes from experience, not your rectum.

I work part time at an autoparts store. A co-worker of mine knows far more about cars than I do, has worked at the store for a year longer than I have, yet I am a far more competent parts delivery driver. Experience is good to have, but isn't everything.

Also, we aren't talking about specific experience, we are talking about some general experience of life, (by we I mean you and Caligasta, cause I didn't bring it up). No specific task or job has been mentioned. General experience doesn't do a person any good if the specific job lies outside of that person's "general experience". I'm just saying (at least I suppose I am, cause I don't know where this argument began, and thus don't know where I'm taking it, or how to get it back to relevence) that you cannot say adults are superior to youth because they have more experience when you are using a generalization and using generalized experience.

Also experience can be a bad thing. Many adults, because of excessive experience, get set in their ways are are closed minded and dismissive of new ideas and innovations. Also they struggle with new technology and ways of doing things. In an ever changing society with ever changing technology and norms, it is young people who are more qualified in many(though not all) areas than adults.

Plus many well experienced folks have no wisdom to speak of. People who end up making the same mistakes over and over again, or who get themselves into the same bad situation over and over again. Wisdom is certainly fed by experience, but it requires an open-mindedness that can assess those experiences with a bit of detachment to discern lessons from it. In many ways this advantage goes to youth, because they aren't set in their ways.

	05-06-2004 09:46									#146
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u got to admit though , theres something inherently unappealing about asher's (or every asher's) geeky computerly image. i wouldnt want to have anything to do with him except solve my PC problems and for that I'd be thankful. then speak for more than half an hour could be a drag, unless of course personality and wisdom makes up for the cimputer geekness.

OTOH u got molly bloom or boris or agathon with which u could sit down and talk a lot about things that are interesting per se (such are "cultural" things)



reallky "positive" science people (computer physics science) get them to solve your problem, avoid inviting them to dinners (except as said if for wisdom and personality), literary types, open your doors, they'll make it worth your time (except of course if irritating personality).


but such is the world.
each on his domain

	05-06-2004 09:51									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Asher wrinkled face: Silly simpletons. Amazing what people will do to pretend to be younger, and then forget that they tried to do it due to the memory lapse from old age. Are you new here?

Are you incapable of writing a post without recourse to unimaginative insults? Obviously not.

I've never pretended to be younger- not something that ever interested me. The error is nothing to do with the information I put into my profile- but thanks for checking it out. Clearly you missed the bit about Melbourne and Australia when you called me 'a whiny fag in China'.

To read, to understand.

	05-06-2004 09:51									#148
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 u got to admit though , theres something inherently unappealing about asher's (or every asher's) geeky computerly image. i wouldnt want to have anything to do with him except solve my PC problems and for that I'd be thankful. then speak for more than half an hour could be a drag, unless of course personality and wisdom makes up for the cimputer geekness. OTOH u got molly bloom or boris or agathon with which u could sit down and talk a lot about things that are interesting per se (such are "cultural" things)

Last time I help you with computer troubles.

My geeky computerly image doesn't exist, but my reputation does. If you meet me in real life, about the last thing you'd expect from me would be being a gay computer geek. I'm surprisingly normal and cordial in person, perhaps even a bit diarming. Ask Zylka or November Adam (though I think he's AWOL now). I can also carry on regular, interesting conversation with people. Mind you, it won't be about such "cultured" things like my interpretation about the Canterbury Tales...

As for sit down and talking with molly or Agathon, you'd have to stab with with a salty spoon in the eye before I'd consider anything of the sort. I find them both so, so, so, so uselessly boring that it would kill me.

I would love to have a sit down and talk with Boris, because while being stereotypically "cultured", he's also a genuinely bright and interesting guy.

	05-06-2004 09:53									#149
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 or boris or agathon

I don't know if I like being grouped with Agathon. He is definitely an elitist snob, and we've had the arguments to prove it. He's quite proud of it, actually.

I love opera and classical. I listen to it almost exclusively. But I have never, ever seriously derided people for their musical tastes. Music is one of mankind's most awesome achievements, IMO, and I take heart when someone finds enjoyment through any musical expression. It's probably the closest thing mankind will have with a common language. I don't know if people experience the same kind of sheer ecstacy and fulfillment I do with classical music, but I hope they do. I'd feel really sorry for anyone who hasn't had a piece of music evoke the strongest of emotions in them, whether it be tears, joy, laughter, love, etc.

	05-06-2004 09:54									#150
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Are you incapable of writing a post without recourse to unimaginative insults? Obviously not.

Hello? This coming from the guy who for about 50 posts consecutively used variations of "Danny Bonaduce" as an insult towards me, when I look nothing like the dude?

My "insults" are unimaginative, because when I start getting creative, I get banned. Plus, they're not insults, they're observations.

quote: Clearly you missed the bit about Melbourne and Australia when you called me 'a whiny fag in China'.

When you're high, China and Australia look astonishingly similar.