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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
This bit is interesting. How old are you Arrian? Not to take this into the personal realm, but if you are middle ageish and you see kids as arrogant know-it alls, and the elderly as arrogant know-it alls, do you find it convenient the one age group you give a pass to is your own? |
I'm not middle aged. I'm 27. And I see your point. I wasn't trying to give myself a free pass, actually. I can still be arrogant. I'm just more aware of it now, and try to curb it.
I was thinking of people ~10-15 yrs older than me, who have kids and whatnot.
These are obviously just my observations, but it seems that being around a while makes one more understanding of other views... not always, but often.
-Arrian
edit: and I don't see all kids as arrogant know-it-alls. I said there was a tendency, in my experience. I went through that stage. My eldest nephew has as well. But my cousin - same age as my nephew - really hasn't. Great kid. As smart or smarter than I was, and less of a pain about it.
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Caligastia
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OzzyKP -
You'll understand when you grow up...seriously.
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zero
well theres a difference bwteen i know everything and I know this is wrong. I know everything attitude is very annoying no matter what, but when someone is saying i know this is wrong, you should listen to them to see why they are saying it is so... |
Agreed. And speaking from personal experience I never claim to know everything, but I certainly know one thing, ageism, is wrong. And while I don't want to get into a debate on that subject in particular, but that's what I do with many people.
I am daily confronted with people, largely middle-aged adults, who do what you say, and don't listen at all. They have this know-it-all attitude. "Oh you're young what do you know." or "When you are older (i.e. my age) then you'll understand." They assume they are correct, in all things, and for anyone to challenge this they must be rash, presumptious, and an arrogant fool.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
I don't see that the "upperclass" has had much success enforcing its view of culture on the "lowerclass" or whatever. Do people in the inner city like Mozart? Mostly no, they like rap/R&B/salsa. Why? Probably because they feel it's "theirs." |
Maybe it's because of my French upbringing, given that France is quite bad in the domain. But in pretty much every dealing with a position of authority, which culture is rewarded? At school, do you get good marks for knowing classical literature, or for knowing Survivor by heart? At work, do you get respected by your boss when you talk to him like a ghetto-boy, like a hick, or like a "polite" and "educated" person?
Heck, even here in 'Poly, do you get more respect when you're using a rather high English (with the willingness not to be snob), or when you use Zero's or 1-1Z-1337's style? 
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Not the point. The point is that Norah Jones is considered better because of objective measurements in music. |
How can that be a serious point if it's nothing but rhetoric? What are the objective measurements in music, an who decides them?
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Generally accepted subjective standards tend to turn into, for all intents and purposes, objective standards, especially after a few generations. |
This is precisely my point -- no, it doesn't. It only becomes objective in the sense that it meets those standards set or not, but those standards themselves can never tell if music is "good" or "bad", just if they adhere to the standards or not. You think of the music does, it's good, else it's bad.
I think that's a ridiculous way to look at art. That's not what art is about.
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Is that your subjective view about people's views on art? 
Obviously critics have a job for a reason. People believe they can tell them what the standards are and if this work matches them. |
But that doesn't say anything about if the work is good or not, just if it's "standards compliant". 
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Just because everyone knows him doesn't mean he is popular. How many people listen to Mozart compared to the popular acts of today? I'm sure he sells much less than a million records in the US per year. |
He's popular in the 'cultured' segments of society. He's popular in that everyone knows who he is, and people can claim to like Mozart to try to be "cultured"...
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It's smart because the upperclass succeeds in forcing its values through its methods. Logic is an art which happens to be lost on you. |
You're the one who thinks standards compliance determines of art is "good" or "bad'.
Art cannot be objectively judged to be "good" or "bad'. Ever. Period.
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Ozzy:
I guess I understand where the disagreement between us comes from: I am talking about the behaviour of an affluent subculture toward others, whereas you are talking about the behaviour of an age-category toward the others.
Indeed, there is a frequent behaviour of mild scoffing at the youth by the older. But I don't think it has to do with subcultures (subcultures can vary immensely in the same age category), so that's why we weren't in agreement.
Mild scoffing is a form of individual behaviour, just like youth' arrogance is a form of individual behaviour. It is not really related to inggrained perceptions. |
Well then we need to do a comparison. Do young upper-class folks have the high-culture snobbish mindset? (to a degree of course, but far, far less than their parents) And conversely, do non-upper class adults have the high-culture snobbish (though admittedly slightly different) mindset? I'd argue they do.
There is/was an ad campaign around here in DC by an adult R&B station here that played up this. Its adds promoted its smooth jazz/R&B play list while at the same time criticizing (in a fairly snobbish way) hip hop. Now in a largely black, largely non-upper class DC, this ad campaign worked well not because it was trageted to the upper-class, but because it was targeted to adults.
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Caligastia
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I'm frankly suprised that OzzyKP has kept up this argument for so long. It's so easy to destroy. Surely it should be obvious to anyone that people with more life experience will generally have more knowledge and wisdom than those with less life experience..
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
I'm frankly surprized at how adept you are at finding every thread I post in and showing up to flame away with your ageist nonsense. |
Flame away? I haven't hurled any insults have I?
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If your above statement is to be believed, then all decisions of import would be deferred to the elderly. Yet our society sticks the elderly in nursing homes, forces them to retire, and generally expects them to disappear. The people with less life experience, the middle agers are the ones who run the show.
This conflicts with your point. |
Not really. The elderly generally tend to lose some of their mental abilities. It's a natural part of the aging process that everyone recognises.
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04-06-2004 20:41
In order to argue your case, that your subjective notion is better than B's subjective notion, you have to have intellect
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