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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Client states are a fickle bunch. You aren't likely to keep them in your orbit if you lose all your international prestige by giving up at the first sign of a challenge from your main strategic enemy. How can you be counted on to support a regime halfway around the world when you won't even match a U.S. arms buildup in your own backyard? |
And so was the Canard sold as to why the US could not bail from Vietnam. Plus you continue under a delusion that waiting Reagan out = giving up. HOw? They could certainly have spent 20% GNP on the military while increasing repression at home and forcing their clients in Eastern Europe to keep a tight lid. Did that have its own dangers? Yes, but would the US intervene? Even under Reagan no, cause 30,000 soviet nukes is a damned good deterrent. The problem with this approach was not in the short term, but the long term, as they would only keep faling behind in tech and wealth, so that even if reagan left and a Carter type returned, with time the US would simply develop something so new the Soviet would not have a chance. Reagan was a taste of how far the soviets had fallen, and they decided they either picked themlseves up, or if in 20 years another belligerant US leader came into power, well, they would be cooked then.
What is Reagan's contribution then> That when Gorbachev came into power, Reagan extended his hand, and allowed Gorby to show reform could have benefits in the now, and thus undermined the hardliners. Had Reagan not reached out, then the hardliners would have simply said that reform in the face of a belligerant enemy was giving in, and thus should be forestalled.
quote:
Do you really want me to give you the laundry list of reasons that any halfway competent observer of Japan (which I'm sure the Soviet Union had) would know?
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Wait, like the world wide experts on the USSR that in 1987 saw how in 1992 the USSR would no longer exist? You mean those type of competent observers?
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johncmcleod
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Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
Jan 2002
time: 21:36
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Reagan's actions to spread democracy worldwide:
A publicity stunt. He was negotiating with MG and trying to get rid of the SU, the only contender to American hegemony. Of course he had to announce to the public that he was fighting for democracy. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Berlin Wall was torn down in '89, after Reagan was out of office.
Does this one instance of 'spreading democracy,' if that's what you could call it,' outweigh Reagan's 'other' actions? Here they are:
He supported (gave the terrorists weapons and funds) terrorist wars and atrocities throughout Latin America, resulting in the death of thousands (hundreds of thousands if you include his support for Pinochet) of innocent men, women, and children. And his invasion of Grenada ruined the economic reforms and improvements the country had made. Grenada was left in chaos and democracy was not given to them.
He supported the apartheid based regime in South Africa, through the time when they invaded Angola and Mozambique, killing one and half million people and causing 60 billion dollars in damage.
He supported the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, one of the worst acts of genocide ever committed on the planet.
He supported the Baathist coup and then Saddam Hussein. He passed laws to allow US corporations to sell Saddam chemicals for WMD so Saddam could gas the Kurds and Iranians.
He supported the Iranian contras, by illegally selling them weapons. His objective was to get Iran and Iraq to fight each other and take as many casualties as possible. The result: Well over a million dead, Iran ruined.
He supported the military dictators in South Korea, until in the late 80s the Korean people overthrew them.
He supported the remnants of the Khmer Rouge army, probably the most brutal organization since the Nazi party.
So where is this vision for democracy?
Pizzawned!
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:36
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Regarding Grenada:
1. The Marxist government that took over in a bloody coup (by murdering the Prime Minister) was fully supported by Cuba - Cuba invaded the place FIRST, and infact during the invasion by the US, a couple dozen Cuban advisers were killed in combat, along with several hundred Cubans being wounded
There were also contingents of Russians, North Koreans, Libyans, East Germans and Bulgarians on the island supporting the Communist takeover.
2. The invasion force was primarily American but consisted of several Carribean nations, who had asked for US help
3. The government was replaced with a democratic one, the first communist government replaced with a Western government since before World War 2.
4. Reagan didn't take away any economic reforms because there weren't any in the first place because the Marxist government had only been in power for around a week and a half!
5. The place wasn't "left in chaos" and in fact in 1985 an international airport (the lifeblood of a tourist nation like Grenada) was built
CHECK YOUR FACTS FIRST PLEASE
Last edited by Ted Striker on 10-06-2004 at 10:26
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Verto
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quote:
Originally posted by johncmcleod
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Berlin Wall was torn down in '89, after Reagan was out of office. |
And Americans weren't given full civil rights until a century after Lincoln died. Therefore, Lincoln had nothing to do with it.
quote:
He supported (gave the terrorists weapons and funds) terrorist wars and atrocities throughout Latin America, resulting in the death of thousands (hundreds of thousands if you include his support for Pinochet) of innocent men, women, and children. And his invasion of Grenada ruined the economic reforms and improvements the country had made. Grenada was left in chaos and democracy was not given to them. |
Reagan supported groups fighting against socialists who had seized power. Reagan took action in Grenada after the PM of Dominica, and head of the Organization of Eastern Caribbean States asked im to; because US medical students were in danger. We found out after the invasion that plans had been made by the socialists to turn the island into a military base for the Soviet Union, and that plans had been made to take the US students hostage.
And for the record, Grenada held free elections and did become a democracy.
Reagan also pressured Pincohet to allow more civil liberties, and forced him to hold a referendum in '88.
The dictator of Haiti was also told to hold free elections or leave. He went into exile in France.
A similar fate was shared with the dictator of the Philippines.
Reagan did support groups who committed atrocities, something not entirely uncommon when you consider they were involved in bloody civil wars. However, steps were taken to remove members of those groups who had participated in murder, rape, etc.
quote:
He supported the Iranian contras, by illegally selling them weapons. His objective was to get Iran and Iraq to fight each other and take as many casualties as possible. The result: Well over a million dead, Iran ruined. |
Iranian contras?  They were not one and the same.
Reagan was found to have knowledge of the arms deal with Iran. The independental counsel, Lawrence Walsh, said he had found no proof that Reagan knew about the transfer of the funds to finance the Nicaraguan contras; this was a decision made by Poindexter and North.
quote:
He supported the remnants of the Khmer Rouge army, probably the most brutal organization since the Nazi party. |
The resistance fighting against the Vietnamese was comprised of several groups: one was lead by the former ruler of Cambodia, one by the former prime minister, and another, the largest, by Pol Pot. Reagan, while attempting to keep funds from getting into the hands of the Khmer Rouge, provided limited aid to the groups.
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09-06-2004 22:39
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