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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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quote:
You say Reagan came and "swept things aside"-I can think of only a few programs he "swept aside" , mainly ending help for low income housing. Non-military discretionary spending grew under him, and he made no moves to end any of the largest programs. |
Well Drake's article is pretty good on this. But when you have, less than 10 years after he left office, a DEMOCRAT president saying "The Era of Big Government is Over", even if it is not true, shows a dramatic sea change in the perception of government.
What did Goldwater do? He wasn't even in the top office, and in the Senate he was never in leadership roles. Reagan was President. He had the bully pulpit. He did cut funding for many social programs. He constantly harped on how bad and inefficient the government was.
There is a reason they call it the Reagan Revolution and not the Goldwater Revolution.
quote:
Reagan democrats as a voting block, not conservative democrats, which is what you mentioned. |
What do you think Reagan Democrats were? Conservative democrats. Zell Miller and John Breaux represent that Southern democrat who would nine times out of ten vote Reagan over Carter/Mondale (even though Carter is from the South). I just gave you some examples, but go all over the South. John Edward's constuency would be Reagan Democrats. Georgia used to be run by Democrats. Aside from Zell, you had Max Cleland and Governor Roy Barnes. A vast majority of their constitutency would be Reagan democrats.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The success of Bush's responses, maybe. |
That's another point in his favor, but it's not the main one. Why would they expect us to invade in the first place? What precedent was there? At most they would have expected some airstrikes and cruise missiles. Look at Gulf 1 - we spent the first nine-tenths of the war bombing the hell out of the Iraqi army before we would commit land troops. Look at Kosovo - we conducted it almost entirely by air (did we even send any ground troops?). Look at Beirut - we sent in a few hundred Marines, and as soon as just a few died, we pulled out. Look at our response to Ghaddafi - we dropped a few bombs, whoop-de-doo (and that was under Reagan). Look at the Iran hostage situation - we spent more than a frigging year negotiating with them. The lessen they'd learned was, you kill Americans, they pull out. We were a "paper tiger". What's the big thing with AQ? Americans in SA and our support for Israel. How do they get them out? Kill some Americans. Bush is criticized for being simple-minded, but the mentality of "you hit me, I hit you back REAL hard" is exactly what they didn't expect.
quote:
Invading Iraq was a gift to AQ, which was on the ropes. |
Iraq has no connection with 9/11, as many on your side of the fence have been quick to point out. In fact, Bush was planning to go in before 9/11. It has no bearing on the question of the wisdom of Bush's response to 9/11.
quote:
It still is as an organization, but it's ideology has now spread far and wide. To misquote Che Guevara, there are now "a thousand Al Qaedas." The original organization will die a martyrs cause, and tens of thousands of others will take their place because of Iraq. |
Any evidence at all that they are somehow stronger, now? There is now no central C&C for their organization - everything would have to be done locally.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
You say Reagan came and "swept things aside"-I can think of only a few programs he "swept aside" , mainly ending help for low income housing. Non-military discretionary spending grew under him, and he made no moves to end any of the largest programs. |
Well Drake's article is pretty good on this. But when you have, less than 10 years after he left office, a DEMOCRAT president saying "The Era of Big Government is Over", even if it is not true, shows a dramatic sea change in the perception of government.
What did Goldwater do? He wasn't even in the top office, and in the Senate he was never in leadership roles. Reagan was President. He had the bully pulpit. He did cut funding for many social programs. He constantly harped on how bad and inefficient the government was.
There is a reason they call it the Reagan Revolution and not the Goldwater Revolution. |
Sorry, but any Revolution so assenine as this one hardly deserves the name- maybe all you guys are ignoring the reality that non-military discresionary spending continues upward and upward. For all the rhetoric, the Republicans in congress, when they actually took power in congress after decades in the wilderness (the real revolution), failed to curtail the government. The most they have done is shift the burden unto the state governments with endless unfunded mandates. And this president, supposedly the deciple of reagan, goes and creates vast new bureaucracies, and new spending programs.
So, if the end of big government has come, can somoene please show me the smaller government? Oh, sorry, none of you can....rhetorics and facts on the ground are different. FDR's rhetoric, or LBJ's rhetoric matched the facts on the gorund they created. All the "smaller government" words have failed utterly to actually bring about a smaller government in total, and not even just the Federal either.
Wow, grand revolt there......
quote:
What do you think Reagan Democrats were? Conservative democrats. Zell Miller and John Breaux represent that Southern democrat who would nine times out of ten vote Reagan over Carter/Mondale (even though Carter is from the South). I just gave you some examples, but go all over the South. John Edward's constuency would be Reagan Democrats. Georgia used to be run by Democrats. Aside from Zell, you had Max Cleland and Governor Roy Barnes. A vast majority of their constitutency would be Reagan democrats. |
Actually imran, the "Reagan democrats" everyone spoke of were not southern protestant boys, like all the ones you mention, but MIdwest Catholic Union guys. That was the supposed magic new constituency that Reagan had brought into the Republican party reach-read up on 1984. Of course, these guys did NOT stay with the republicans.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
...and another from a woman from El Salvador thanking him for "saving her country."
Here's to you Mister President we love you! 
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Ted's analysis of what Reagan 'did' for El Salvador seems a little sketchy.
'In early 1982, Bonner also exposed the Salvadoran government's massacre of nearly 1,000 men, women and children at the town of El Mozote in December 1981.
Bonner's courageous reporting on the El Mozote massacre would not be corroborated until 1991. Then, a United Nations forensics team excavated the village and found hundreds of skeletons, including those of little children who had been butchered by the Salvadoran army along with their mothers and fathers. But this El Mozote war crime, like so many others in El Salvador, went unpunished, not only there but in Washington. No American official was held accountable for giving misleading testimony to Congress or covering up the
atrocity.
One U.S. government pamphlet from the mid-1980s even suggested that Nicaragua, with its navy of a few river patrol boats, might somehow bottle up the U.S. fleet in New Orleans as it tried to resupply American troops in Europe during a hypothetical World War III with the Soviet Union. As farfetched as these scenarios were, these apocalyptic visions justified to the Reagan team almost any action, even countenancing atrocities against civilian populations in Central America and deceiving the American people at home. '
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/usa/secsal.html
'El Salvador.
"The Reagan Missionary Position." No, not a sexual position for raping American churchwomen (for that would be in poor taste), but a position as in a stand. The Reagan Missionary Position, formulated by high officials Al Haig and Jeane Kirkpatrick, is that the three nuns and one layworker were pro-Marxist "political activists" and thus hardly innocent. Besides, their deaths were accidents, not planned executions. Haig explained that the churchwomen ran or were perceived to have run a "roadblock" and may have gotten caught in a guerrilla-National Guard "exchange of fire." Were they also raped in the crossfire? The Reagan Missionary Position's lips say no, but his eyes say yes. '
http://www.counterpunch.org/hans06072004.html
'In early 1992, the war came to an official end when a United Nations commission, after a year-and-a-half effort, finally got the warring sides to agree to a cease fire and a peace agreement. A major offensive launched by the guerrillas in late 1989-in which they "brought the war home" to wealthy neighborhoods and Americans in the capital-had made clear to Washington and its Salvadorean allies, once again, finally, that the war was unwinnable. In February 1990, Gen. Maxwell Thurman, the head of the US Southern Command, told Congress that the El Salvador government was not able to defeat the rebels and that the only way to end the fighting was through negotiation. '
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/B...alvador_KH.html
El Mozote- Reagan's allies against the 'commies' in action:
'A boy named Chepe, age 7, was the only child to survive the siege. He later described the terrors he witnessed:
"They slit some of the kids' throats, and many they hanged from the tree ... The soldiers kept telling us, 'You are guerrillas and this is justice. This is justice.' Finally, there were only three of us left. I watched them hang my brother. He was two years old. I could see that I was going to be killed soon, and I thought it would be better to die running, so I ran. I slipped through the soldiers and dived into the bushes. They fired into the bushes, but none of their bullets hit me." '
"....there is sufficient evidence that in the days preceding and following the El Mozote massacre, troops participating in 'Operation Rescue' massacred the non-combatant civilian population in La Joya canton, in the villages of La Rancheria, Jocote Amatillo y Los Toriles, and in Cerro Pando canton."
http://www.parascope.com/articles/0197/el_mozin.htm
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:36
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quote:
Crowds Wait Hours to View Reagan Casket
Jun 8, 5:55 PM (ET)
By JEREMIAH MARQUEZ
SIMI VALLEY, Calif. (AP) - Waiting good-naturedly for as much as half a day in traffic jams and a parking lot, tens of thousands of people filed past Ronald Reagan's flag-draped casket in an outpouring that forced organizers to extend the viewing period Tuesday by four hours.
An estimated 52,000 mourners had passed by the coffin in the 24 hours after the viewing began at noon Monday at Reagan's presidential library. The nation's 40th president died Saturday at age 93.
Nancy Reagan, resting and preparing for funeral events in Washington, D.C., watched the scene on television at her Bel Air home in Los Angeles, said Joanne Drake, chief of staff of Reagan's office.
"'It is unbelievable what I am seeing on TV,'" Drake quoted the former first lady as saying. "'The outpouring of love for my husband is incredible.'"
The flow of mourners was interrupted briefly when Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry arrived. Standing before the casket, he made the sign of the cross, placed his hand over his heart, then left.
Traffic jams and the wait for shuttle buses encouraged camaraderie among the throngs, who passed the time sharing memories of Reagan and making new friends.
"It was really something. There was a kindred spirit out there as we waited," said Linda Peterson, 49, of Temecula, who left home with her son, Lee, 23, on Monday night.
Their 110-mile trip went swiftly until the last four miles to a local college parking lot, which took four hours to cover, and then there was a 4 1/2-hour wait to board a shuttle bus to the hilltop library.
"I wanted my son to know exactly what an honorable life is all about - a life of service with such passion," Mrs. Peterson said.
The viewing at the library in the hills west of Los Angeles was the first event in a week of national mourning. The body will be flown to Washington on Wednesday to lie in state at the Capitol, followed by a national funeral on Friday and a return to the library for burial at sunset.
Nancy Reagan, who accompanied the body to the library, received a message Tuesday from Pope John Paul II expressing "deep gratitude" for her husband's commitment to the cause of freedom.
Among the celebrities who came to the library Tuesday was actress Bo Derek, who said she became a Republican when Reagan became president, citing his belief in smaller government and optimism.
"It's something when you first see the flag on the casket," she said. "I'm stunned. He was such a great man."
The period in which Reagan's body was to lie in repose at the library was originally supposed to end at 6 p.m. Tuesday, but the overwhelming turnout forced an extension to 10 p.m. More buses were added to the shuttle fleet to handle the crowds.
The Red Cross handed out cups of water that were gulped down by mourners before they boarded buses for the return to Moorpark College.
Jesse and Joni Garcia of Woodland left their Northern California home at 6 p.m. Monday and finally walked past the casket at 9:45 a.m. Tuesday.
"It took five hours for the last five miles of the freeway," said Jesse Garcia, 52. They spent two more hours in the parking lot before boarding a bus.
"It's a lifetime event. I wanted to show my gratitude. I wanted to show my love," he said.
"He came home last night and said, 'We're leaving in 15 minutes,'" his wife said.
"I knew they'd think I was nuts," her husband added. "But he's a homeboy - our governor, our president."
Humbert Cabrera, 38, of San Diego, said while waiting in line: "He should be on Mount Rushmore. He was one of us. He lifted us all."
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Associated Press Writer Jeff Wilson contributed to this report.
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http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040608/D8333BSG0.html
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johncmcleod
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Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
Jan 2002
time: 21:36
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quote:
So thanks for showing me your real ignorance, next time get your head out of a book and actually meet some real people who lived the situation first hand. |
He quoted someone that was actually there. Reagan supported terrorist wars and atrocities in Latin America that left thousands dead. There is no excuse. It wasn't 'the right thing to do.'
The best reason was to 'stop the rise of communism.' Just because you don't like their type of government doesn't make it okay to support the murder of innocent people.
And Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, and the invasion of Grenada, are not the only examples of Reagan's terrorist actions. Don't forget that he fully supported:
He supported the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, where one of the worst acts of genocide in the history of mankind was committed.
He supported the brutal, racist regime in South Africa.
He supported the remnants of the Khmer Rouge army, possibly one of the most brutal organizations in the history of mankind.
He supported UNITA and Renamo terrorist in Angola and Mozambique.
As for some of the dictators he supported, the list includes Pinochet, who murdered or tortured 170,000 people; General Suharto, who exterminated between half and one million suspected communists, many of them poor peasants; the list goes on.
Reagan is considered as a great leader who supported democracy and helped spread it throughout the world.
Can anyone name one example, just one, on how Reagan helped a country achieve democracy?
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
You really have absolutley no idea what you are talking about, and the fact that you consistently have to provide mountains of cut and paste articles only proves the point.
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You really have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about, and the absence of any sense of why people around the world in Asia, Africa and South and Central America loathe Reagan and the legacy of his dirty wars, proves my point.
Your response is a perfect example of this, and instead of arguing the points, you launch into a sad personal attack, not bothering to rebut any of the issues raised.
So a woman from El Salvador says thanks for saving my country- from what?
Democracy?
A decent future?
Instead we get the usual ' well the world isn't black and white'- so tell me what isn't black and white about Reagan's allies torturing and murdering the children of El Mozote?
I trust the testimony of the El Salvadoran, Guatemalan and Chilean refugees and exiles I met in London, many of whom had been through the care of Reagan's friends in Central and South America, and who had the scars, mental and physical, to prove it.
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
blah blah blah
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Don't launch personal attacks and you won't get them in return. Simple as that.
PWNED
Last edited by Ted Striker on 09-06-2004 at 11:12
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08-06-2004 22:50
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