06-06-2004 11:13									#61
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On military? Don't mind it. What I DO mind is increased government spending on domestic programs.

	06-06-2004 11:17									#62
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quote: On military? Don't mind it.

Our military by far is the largest in the world and we spend more on it than the rest of the world combined. Why do we need military budget increases?

	06-06-2004 11:18									#63
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod rest of the world combined.

Wrong

	06-06-2004 11:19									#64
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Indeed. If you're going to cite statistics, they need to be accurate.

	06-06-2004 11:20									#65
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Sorry. The point is we spend gross amounts of money on things that destroy instead of using it to help people.

	06-06-2004 11:20									#66
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Ignoring the false statistic, military budget increases are good, because no one is going to jack about the bad guys in the world outside of the US. We have to be in the forefront.

	06-06-2004 11:24									#67
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I think Reagan was a great president. And yes I also think Thatcher was a great prime minister. So you know what side I lean on.

but what I am really dismayed at is the response to the Beirut bombings. 0 response. Marines I talked to in the navy wanted to kick some ass after that happened, but we did nothing. I understand his main focus was on communism, but we should have done something about the terrorist threat.

So I don't think he was that "tough" of a president. We could have taken care of the terrorist problem back then. Between him and Jimmy Carter terrorists got the idea that they could push the U.S. around and we'd back down. Which was true. Because of this, I have to pace partial blame of 9/11 on Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter.

	06-06-2004 11:25									#68
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quote: Ignoring the false statistic, military budget increases are good, because no one is going to jack about the bad guys in the world outside of the US. We have to be in the forefront.

How can you spew out such nonsense? We are the bad guys. We install the brutal dictators and support them. There is a reason we're the most hated nation in the world. We are at least party responsible for the deaths of millions of people.

Do you think American presidents will actually go out and try to be the protectors of freedom in the world? It is like asking Wal-Mart to take over the American economy and then use this power to do good and give everyone fair wages, low prices, and serve the poor.

	06-06-2004 11:29									#69
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The more you fight terrorists, especially Muslim ones, the more people around the world see the US fighting and killing people, and the more they hate us and more people join terrorist groups. We go around fighting Al Qaeda we just make it look like a war on Islam and we piss off a lot of Muslims, who in turn join organizations like Al Qaeda and kill innocent people.

	06-06-2004 11:34									#70
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quote: We are the bad guys.

Ah, lovely. I'll ask you the same thing you asked me:

How can you spew out such nonsense?

Why don't you ask the Kuwaitis if we are the bad guys. Why don't you ask the Poles, the Lithuianians, etc. Why don't you ask the Taiwanese?

We are the greatest force of good in the world. Without us, the whole thing goes to ****. We are the biggest advocate for good change in the world today. Our central role in the fall of Communism makes us the good guys by itself.

quote: There is a reason we're the most hated nation in the world.

Yeah, we because we won't let the bastards get away with their ****. Because we dare raise our voices and say "That's not right".

	06-06-2004 11:34									#71
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quote: The more you fight terrorists, especially Muslim ones, the more people around the world see the US fighting and killing people, and the more they hate us and more people join terrorist groups

That's nice. So we should let terrorists just run wild, eh? Jeez, what planet are you on?

	06-06-2004 11:39									#72
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Imran, I'm going to assume your trolling him and thus don't actually believe much of what you say

	06-06-2004 11:48									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar UR, do you happen to know during which administration the US National Debt reached its peak? I'll give you three guesses.

You missed the point entirely. The point was not whether Reagan ran up the greatest amount of debt, the point was his supporters neglect, intentionally or otherwise, Reagan's many mistakes and flaws.

	06-06-2004 11:57									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Indeed. If you're going to cite statistics, they need to be accurate.

The fact that it is more than the rest of the top 10 combined does say a lot.

	06-06-2004 12:01									#75
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You missed the point entirely. Reagons detractors ignore all his myriad accomplishments and achievements.

I suppose a few thousand in Central America dead outweighs the 3 billion saved every day of his presidency, as well as being responsible for the ending of that threat. If you can't make those trades, then your not leader material. You are definitely forum anonymous detractor for the sake of argument material, but not leader

	06-06-2004 12:02									#76
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So, how long until we get Reagan on a coin? I suggest the fifty cent piece.

	06-06-2004 12:04									#77
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quote: Imran, I'm going to assume your trolling him and thus don't actually believe much of what you say

Assume away, but I do believe about 90% of what I said.

	06-06-2004 12:07									#78
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod The more you fight terrorists, especially Muslim ones, the more people around the world see the US fighting and killing people, and the more they hate us and more people join terrorist groups. We go around fighting Al Qaeda we just make it look like a war on Islam and we piss off a lot of Muslims, who in turn join organizations like Al Qaeda and kill innocent people.

Not really.

Most of the world is united with the US in the war on terrorism, including the vast majority of Islamic states. Of course it will piss of fundies but they are fundies and pissed off due to their very nature.

	06-06-2004 12:59									#79
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I can only give my personal view, and being a non-american, my view on his legacy is rather limited to his foreign policies, not on his domestic ones like the economy.

As he is the first president that I conciously remember, I remember him most as a US president that represented US militarism, and a relentless US policy of confrontation.
The 80's were quite a decade of doom from my perspective: here we had a bad recession, unemployment was high (which didn't effect me too much, as I was a student, but sure did not paint a good picture of what the future could hold for me), and the prospect of a war, likely to turn nuclear, seemed not too far away.
Reagan's policies appeared to do little to diffuse the situation, on the contrary: he chose confrontation.
The many wars that were fought (in Africa, middle and south-america, asia, war on drugs etc.) showed that the US was capable of doing bad things, and it was clear the world wasn't that black and white as what would be comfortable. This didn't really strengthen me in the opinion we had the right guys on our side.
Reagan was scary, and the most frightening thing was his apparent idiocy at times, the most frightening example his 'radio-speech' were he notified the US-populace that bombing of the USSR would commence in 15 minutes. Sure, it was very clear this was supposed to be laughed at, but I did so only to get rid of the knot in my stomach, not with a passion.
It was very difficult to feel comfortable with this guy at the helm of the USA, and I was glad he could only serve two terms.

The turn that took place during his presidency was truly amazing however: when Gorbatsjov emerged as leader of the USSR, quite suddenly a thaw in east-west relations occured, and I will be forever thankfull that Reagan did take the opportunaty to cooperate with the Soviets.
I remember very well how thin the edge of the coin appeared, and how uncertain it was if the change of leadership in the USSR, with the announced change in policies as well (perestroika, glasnost, what would it mean?) would really be able to make a difference from the world that was.
And it was evident that Reagan's attitude to the opportunaty at hand would be one of the decisive factors if the world was really to change direction at the crossroads at hand, or if would be only a glimmer of hope that would soon fade away.

IIRC, it was the summit in Reykyavik that really broke the ice in the end, and I remember very well the releive I felt when the historic thaw became apparent.

If anything, I think that the greatest achievement of Ronald Reagan is that he took the opportunaty at hand with the rise of Gorbatsjov, and that he was able to end his path of confrontation, and switch to a path of cooperation.


I will remember Reagan for a long time as the caracter from the 'Frankie goes to Hollywood' clip though: "when two tribes go to war", and it may be very well that this clip showed very much the situation where both the USA and the USSR found themselves: the ring-fight they were both in was not going to get them anywhere, and it was draining both there resources to an unacceptable level.

	06-06-2004 13:03									#80
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confrontational?

would you rather he back down in the face of the Soviets?

Some of you need to understand what a strong president is. Reagon was a strong president (except during the Beirut thing I lament upon in my above post)

At no time in the 80's were we even remotely close to war. That happened during a democrat's presidency during the 1960's.

	06-06-2004 13:29									#81
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At it is said, Diss... it is best to negotiate from a position of strength. Though I am glad that the USSR allowed a Gorby to rise to the position where things could be worked out without total paranoia on both sides of the bargaining table.

	06-06-2004 13:52									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident confrontational? would you rather he back down in the face of the Soviets?

Uhmm... So you agree he was confrontational?

Or do you disagree

	06-06-2004 14:01									#83
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well I was kind of young.

The Evil empire rant is a bit confrontational I admit. But other than that, I can't remember any specific examples. Perhaps the military buildup could be seen as confrontational. But the military was in a very bad state. I've heard stories from navy guys about the state of the navy in the 1970's. It was in shambles. Although Reagan may have went overboard. I don't think a 600 ship navy was needed. But that is what Reagan wanted.

	06-06-2004 14:25									#84
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Opinions will vary greatly depending on whether you're American or not. Growing up in the Cold War, Reagan terrified me. Labels of "evil" are way off the mark, but when you're sat inbetween the US and the USSR with a massively escalating arms race (plus SDI that looked like giving the US the ability to use nukes with impunity- at least, for people in the US), and US F1-11 jets are bombing Libya out of British air bases, it's a scary place to be.

I have grey hairs with his name on.

	06-06-2004 15:21									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think Reagan was a great president. And yes I also think Thatcher was a great prime minister. So you know what side I lean on. but what I am really dismayed at is the response to the Beirut bombings. 0 response. Marines I talked to in the navy wanted to kick some ass after that happened, but we did nothing. I understand his main focus was on communism, but we should have done something about the terrorist threat. So I don't think he was that "tough" of a president. We could have taken care of the terrorist problem back then. Between him and Jimmy Carter terrorists got the idea that they could push the U.S. around and we'd back down. Which was true. Because of this, I have to pace partial blame of 9/11 on Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter.

That was an early mistake. The way he handled Libya, and those hijackers, demonstrated that he had learned from it.

	06-06-2004 15:24									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten So, how long until we get Reagan on a coin? I suggest the fifty cent piece.

Nah.

Knock Grant off the twenty!

	06-06-2004 15:30									#87
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quote: Nah. Knock Grant off the twenty!

That option came to mind, as well. Why not do both? All the best presidents have both a bill and a coin with their image on it.

BTW, isn't Andrew Jackson on the twenty? I thought Grant was on the fifty...

	06-06-2004 15:42									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran, I'm going to assume your trolling him and thus don't actually believe much of what you say Assume away, but I do believe about 90% of what I said.

Im referring to the whole "The US is the defender of freedom and democracy!" bit

	06-06-2004 16:01									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Nah. Knock Grant off the twenty! That option came to mind, as well. Why not do both? All the best presidents have both a bill and a coin with their image on it. BTW, isn't Andrew Jackson on the twenty? I thought Grant was on the fifty...

Damn, you're right...

Knock Jackson off the twenty!!!

	06-06-2004 16:08									#90
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Let's just knock Grant off the fifty and grace both the 50-cent piece and the 50-dollar bill with Reagan's image.