07-06-2004 03:51									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He also applied to join the Communist Party in 1935, but was rejected because he wasn't bright enough.

Cite? 8 pages of Google haven't done it for me.

	07-06-2004 04:05									#152
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It wasn't that hard for me.
http://slate.msn.com/id/36155/

In the early to mid 90s, the CPUSA found his application card and showed it to the press. I remember laughing my ass off at the time. They said they hadn't remember it, but when Moriss' book came out, they went back and looked through the files, and sure enough, there it was.

Too bad they hadn't found it in 1980. Woulda sunk Reagan.

	07-06-2004 04:10									#153
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I think that htey wil build up the old Gipper to besome great f***ing hero, jsut liek they would any other guy. Especially nowadays, FOX news would boycott you, and declare you to be some sort of sleper cell Muslim if you ever thought of criticisning any ex president.

	07-06-2004 04:15									#154
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Yeah, that's the Slate article I found as well, but I didn't cite it because, well, note that they have a hard time believing the spin that the CPUSA (and Edmund Morris) is trying to place on the matter:

quote: Morris does recount his attempts to nail down Fast's story. He describes conversations with three Reagan acquaintances, including the actor Eddie Albert. Morris does not say that Albert was a party member, but he strongly hints that Albert and his wife operated on "behalf of the CPUSA." Albert confirmed for Morris that Reagan did indeed discuss joining the party and was ultimately dissuaded. But Morris writes that when he tried to question the aged actor further, "Albert caged up as expected." Oddly, when I called Albert, he was anything but cagey. In fact he couldn't stop screaming into the phone: "Reagan was a nice guy, but he was stupid. He didn't have a clue about any Russia business. He talked about being a Communist. We all did. But he never did anything about it. One night my wife sat down and told him the party was a load of crap." But was this just a ploy? Were Albert and his wife secretly Communists, conspiring to keep Reagan out of the party? "No." Did Morris ask Albert this question? "[Morris] is an ***hole," says Albert. And even Fast can't confirm what Morris implies, "I have no idea whether Eddie was in the party or not." Eddie Albert may be lying, of course, and corroborating the Fast version of events may not be possible. But there are gaping holes in Morris' reporting that can easily be filled with a few phone calls. For instance, Fast told Morris that Reagan dealt with a local party leader, "a well-known screenwriter, a playwright, a historian." Fast wouldn't identify this person to Morris and Morris doesn't mention any attempt to track him down. But only one Hollywood character fits this bill: John Howard Lawson, the dean of Hollywood Reds who reemerged to become Reagan's political foe in the late '40s. And Fast confirmed to me that he was talking about Lawson. Or Morris could have contacted Dorothy Healey, who was the chair of the Southern California Communist Party during the '40s. Healey told me: "This has to be apocrypha. It's nonsense. Of course, we never rejected people for being too flaky. And if Reagan had been rejected, I would have definitely heard about it." And in an interview, the authorized biographer concedes that he didn't investigate thoroughly: "Arthur Schlesinger once told me that he had dirt on Reagan buried in his filing system. But I never went after him." Although the Communist Party episode is one of Morris' most oft-mentioned scoops, he didn't even have it first. Howard Fast told essentially the same story in the New York Observer eight years ago. (And probably has been dining out on it for decades.) Yet Morris did amazingly little to try to nail it down. But who has time to dig for facts when you've got to make up not one but two different fantasies?

Anyway, if your cite in support of this theory concludes with the above passage I wouldn't bet the mortgage re: the accuracy of the story.

	07-06-2004 04:18									#155
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Che is an habitual liar, but it also goes by the name of propaganda.

	07-06-2004 04:20									#156
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Maybe, maybe not.

Ultimately it matters not, as the CPUSA found his registration card.

	07-06-2004 04:21									#157
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Che is an habitual liar, but it also goes by the name of propaganda.

GFY

	07-06-2004 04:22									#158
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Well, I have no problem believing that Reagan might have been attracted to the CPUSA back in the thirties, even to the point of filling out some registration card he was handed at a cocktail party or other registration drive... times were hard, the Soviet Union looked like it might have some answers (even though they were in the midst of yet another of their purges), and Marxism was then fashionable among the Hollywood set. However, to make the claim that he applied to the party and was roundly rejected for "being stupid" and that nobody thought to mention it for the next 55 years really stretches credulity, Che, especially since the revelation would've stopped the Reagan Revolution before it began and would've benefitted a LOT of people.

	07-06-2004 04:29									#159
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reagan was a idiot, whose acting skills have fooled everyone into thinking that he was a genius. thumbs up for fiscally resposible conservatives, cuz we all know he was one of them http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa013es.html

	07-06-2004 04:30									#160
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My, my. You commies have dainty feelings these days.

	07-06-2004 04:33									#161
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT However, to make the claim that he applied to the party and was roundly rejected for "being stupid" and that nobody thought to mention it for the next 55 years really stretches credulity, Che, especially since the revelation would've stopped the Reagan Revolution before it began and would've benefitted a LOT of people.

Well, he may not have been rejected for being a flake. That comes from Howard Fast (a former Commie). As I said, the CP itself seems to have been unaware that Reagan had filled out a card.

But yeah, it mighta been nice if they found it in 1980. Lord knows what four more years of Carter would have done to us though.

	07-06-2004 04:33									#162
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Slow and Che... ONE MORE PERSONAL ATTACK OUT OF EITHER OF YOU IN ANY THREAD, and you guys are toast.

Take your crap somewhere else, because it isn't allowed at Apolyton.

	07-06-2004 04:37									#163
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT FWIW, the payroll tax for SS was instituted in 1937. 1981-1937=44.

Oops, I was referring to the increase in 1983. I made an error. Nevertheless, Reagan was responsible for a regressive tax increase.

from: http://www.house.gov/apps/list/pres...agan041601.html

quote: In fact, almost half of the increased revenues of the Reagan era came from Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes, which were increased by President Reagan and Congress in 1983.

quote: Sava's condemnation of Reagan is the best endorsement for the former president, at least that I can think of.

sure, but only if you think that bigger government, increased taxes, supporting dictators (and mass murder), and irresponsible spending are good things...

It's my experience that most reagan-lovers choose to be stupid. You've got a choice folks. Be stupid, or not...

	07-06-2004 04:46									#164
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Well, yeah, he raised the SS tax, but so did every administration before him except for FDR (and he started the program). So what?

Hell, Truman raised the taxes by fifty percent, from 2% to 3%, in 1950 alone. Kennedy/LBJ more than doubled the tax, from 4% at the start of 1961 to 8.4% by the end of 1968. Reagan only increased the tax by 15% during his entire administration (the 1983 increase was 9%, the '86 increase was 6%), far less than those across the aisle did during theirs.

Like I said, your posts aren't really worth responses, so I'm going to drop this debate and declare myself not just the winner, but also the more knowledgeble.

To look at who's choosing to remain stupid, all you need to do is look in the mirror.

Last edited by JohnT on 07-06-2004 at 04:52

	07-06-2004 04:54									#165
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, yeah, he raised the SS tax, but so did every administration before him except for FDR (and he started the program). So what? Hell, Truman raised the taxes by fifty percent, from 2% to 3%, in 1950 alone. Kennedy/LBJ more than doubled the tax, from 4% at the start of 1961 to 8.4% by the end of 1968. Reagan only increased the tax by 15% during his entire administration (the 1983 increase was 9%, the '86 increase was 6%), far less than those across the aisle did during theirs. Again: so what?

Reagan's net increase was from a rate of 11.70% to 15.30%... a larger percentage point increase than all other administrations you spoke of. It's intellectually dishonest to say, "Well Truman increased it 50% bu Reagan only increased it 15%" when Reagan's overall percentage point increase was larger. But then again, I expect intellectual dishonest from reagan fans. The facts are against them so they manipulate numbers for their own political agenda. Your manipulation might work on a the dumb, sheeplike masses of reagan supporters... but not me. Sorry... come again.

edit: link for payroll tax increase information http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa129.html

	07-06-2004 04:57									#166
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quote: He also applied to join the Communist Party in 1935, but was rejected because he wasn't bright enough.

I'd say that he had his revenge.

	07-06-2004 04:58									#167
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Alright, the demi-god Sava has finally convinced me. Reagan = teh evil

	07-06-2004 05:07									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Reagan's net increase was from a rate of 11.70% to 15.30%... a larger percentage point increase than all other administrations you spoke of. It's intellectually dishonest to say, "Well Truman increased it 50% bu Reagan only increased it 15%" when Reagan's overall percentage point increase was larger. But then again, I expect intellectual dishonest from reagan fans. The facts are against them so they manipulate numbers for their own political agenda. Your manipulation might work on a the dumb, sheeplike masses of reagan supporters... but not me. Sorry... come again. edit: link for payroll tax increase information http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa129.html

Sava, here is a better table: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html Please note that this is a primary source, not a secondary source like your Cato institute piece.

In 1981 the tax rate for OASDI was 13.3%, not 11.7%. In 1988 the tax rate for OASDI was 15.02%, not 15.3% an increase of 12.9% over the 1981 rate.

Note the percentage increases during Trumans, Eisenhowers, and Kennedy/LBJs eras.

And before you start whining "but this is the CATO Institute, which I choose because.... hippocrytical morrons " I don't give a shiite what side of the aisle the opinion piece might find itself on, it's still an opinion and should never be used for primary sources. Such is intellectually dishonest... and a quite common tactic of yours.

	07-06-2004 05:16									#169
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Sava is a dumbass. Tell us something we don't know.

	07-06-2004 05:21									#170
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quote: I don't give a shiite what side of the aisle the opinion piece might find itself on, it's still an opinion and should never be used for primary sources. Such is intellectually dishonest... and a quite common tactic of yours.

You got me! I am using this RIGHT WING WEBSITE to further my leftist agenda.



You should try reading your source. I admit the figures are different that the ones I posted from CATO. According to YOUR source... the total payroll tax (OASDI) rate was 9.3% in 1981... raised to 14.3% in 1987. Thats a total percentage point increase of 5%... a greater increase than all other administrations past... It took other administrations to raise it 5% in 20 YEARS!!!! Reagan managed to increase it by that much in only 6 years.

And this is according to YOUR SOURCE. Not mine.

Pointing out the facts is another common tactic of mine. And once again, you lose...

	07-06-2004 05:31									#171
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Sava, you're mixing and matching your terms again. In your original response to me you state:

quote: Reagan's net increase was from a rate of 11.70% to 15.30%...

Now I have been studying Social Security for a number of years and instantly recognized the fact that you merged the OASDI and the HI components in your numbers. Therefore, to compare like to like, I followed your lead and pointed you to the primary source chart, showing you the error of your ways.

Now that you have been proven wrong (again! It must be a little sickening by now), you are changing the terms of the debate to include only the OASDI portion of the tax while ignoring the HI portion... which is something you didn't do in your original post.

And you're still wrong. Looking at the chart it clearly shows that OASDI in 1981 was 10.7% while in 1989 it was 12.12%, an increase of 1.42%. Where's the 5% figure coming from? Also, from what I see, the US hasn't seen a OASDI tax of 9.3% since 1972!

Intellectual dishonesty thy name is Sava!

	07-06-2004 05:32									#172
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Ahhh! Sava is looking at the self-employed tax! OK, so he's doing worse than just dropping the HI portion of the equation, he's mixing and matching different tax tables!

But, self-employment taxes are for the self-employed "rich". Shouldn't they go punitively up to punish the bastards? Note that before Reagan the self-employed actually got an tax break - the employed got socked for 12.26% of the taxes, whereas the self-employed only had to pay 9.3%. After Reagan it was brought back into balance, with the self-employed paying an equal rate than the "normally" employed (15.02 to 15.02).

	07-06-2004 05:33									#173
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Ahhh! Sava is looking at the self-employed tax! OK, so he's doing worse than just dropping the HI portion of the equation, he's mixing and matching different tax states! Moron.

Hey, just because your argument is weak doesn't mean you need to be throwing personal attacks.

	07-06-2004 05:36									#174
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Ahhh! Sava is looking at the self-employed tax!

It's just one of the many taxes reagan increased. If you want, I can go through each type of tax and list the kind of raise. Personally, I find it disturbing that reagan was increasing taxes on the self-employed. God knows that hard-working, independent, enterpreneurial people felt a bigger burden of tax during the reagan years.

edit: on that note... during his presidency, reagan increased taxes 14 times.

	07-06-2004 05:40									#175
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Sava, you are so full of it. Given that you are admittedly everything but hard-working, independent or enterpreneurial, and that you have nothing but contempt for those who are, go take your crocodile tears where people might fall for them... DU, perhaps?

	07-06-2004 05:42									#176
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And about wasteful spending...

Through 39 presidents and 204 years of US History, US publically held debt was $1 trillion. Reagan managed to quadruple that.

	07-06-2004 05:46									#177
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Does anyone else want to attempt to debate me? It seems the reaganphiles can only go a post or two before resorting to personal attacks because their arguments are weak (or non-existent). If someone wants to insult me, fine, I'll put said persons on my ignore list. But I will continue to post facts about the reagan years and the terrible effects it had on our great country. People can read and educate themselves, or choose to be morons.

Having said that, I won't respond to posters who just hurl insults. Especially when I have younger cousins who can do better. But what can I expect from people who idolize an alzheimer's patient as a "great leader".

	07-06-2004 05:47									#178
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This coming from you! Tis to laugh!

And, please note, that I was just repeating what you've said about yourself in this thread. Personal insults? No, personal observations made by reading your very own words about yourself.

Go ahead and ignore me, little man.

	07-06-2004 05:48									#179
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Sorry I don't feel like bashing my head against an impenetratable wall of stupidity. I'm suprised John did so for as long as he did. Raising infants must be good practice for stuff like that.

Edit: I shouldn't have insulted Sophie like that. I'm sorry John.

Last edited by DinoDoc on 07-06-2004 at 05:58

	07-06-2004 05:49									#180
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I think this round goes to JohnT.