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johncmcleod is offline johncmcleod
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Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
Jan 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 07-06-2004 09:28 Visit johncmcleod's homepage!
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quote:
FDR supported Stalin, who murdered millions.


Yeah, FDR did support some brutal dictators. His domestic policies were great but he did do some bad things.

Verto is offline Verto

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Mar 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Roosevelt was far greater.


Oh great, another Rooseveltphile claiming FDR won the Second World War. Like that invalid could accomplish anything.






Hey! That's surprisingly easy to do. And too think Sava's been having all the fun!

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Hey! That's surprisingly easy to do. And too think Sava's been having all the fun!
I'm telling you... trolling is great fun.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 07-06-2004 09:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually Reagan and the CIA Director realized it and created the SDI plan for that express purpose. For all intents and purposes, SDI was overstated to cause fear.


Nice hindsight

Dis is offline Dis
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Feb 2000
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hindsight? They knew the technology didn't exist.

Dis is offline Dis
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Also reagan was one of my favourite Ex-presidents in the SNL cartoon. What will they do without him? well they have been hurting since Nixon died. I don't think they make anymore.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 07-06-2004 10:11
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quote:
Nice hindsight


Well you can call it what you want, but all you have to do is read what the CIA Director wrote at the time. And Diss is right. The tech did not exist, it was all 'research'. They used a weapon down the pike to scare the **** out of the Soviets. It was brilliant.

quote:
And still no refutations on arguments dealing with the people Reagan helped murder.


Only if you really care about that sort of things. Me being an ends justify the means type of person, it doesn't.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
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I suppose that I haven't eulogized Reagan yet, so I'll take the opportunity.

Ronnie started his political career just as he ended it, ardently fighting against the poor. His first major gig was as a spokesman for GM to go around campaigning against unionization. And in his first year of office, he used Taft-Hartley to break up PATCO strike. And in the following decade organized labor was mercilessly slaughtered by old Gipper.

Social security was going up on the chopping block, though it survived despite his best efforts. Of course, he was more successful in other matters. Ketchup would become a "vegetable" instead of a "condiment" to cut $1.5 billion from federal funding for school lunches for the poor. The tax burden would be switched further from the rich to the poor with regressive payroll tax hikes. 'Course, we could always afford corporate pork and massive protectionism, funded by unprecedented budget deficits.

In foreign policy, the theme was no different. In El Salvador, Reagan propped up a brutal regime that massacred peasants when they got uppity. The same assaults against "communist subversion" happened in Honduras with its Batallion 316. And after the Sandanistas kicked our boy, Somoza out of Nicaragua, Ronnie sent in right wing death squads to slaughter up and down the country.

These Contras were funded by arm sales in Iran, so that they could slaughter as many Iraqis as humanly possible. And we would fund Iraq, so they would slaughter as many Iranians as humanly possible. A million dead, and power parity wasn't even achieved given Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in a couple years. And when Saddam went after Kurds and Marsh Arabs, that was just fine. Of course, the Khomenists weren't the only Islamists Reagan funded. Half a billion per year went to the Mujahadeen, helping give birth to Islamic terrorism as we know it.

The song remains the same in Chen's South Korea, Suharto's Indonesia, Doe's Liberia, Apartheid South Africa, etc., etc.

And, of course, there's the almost extending the Cold War for a few decades through his initial stance towards Gorby, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 07-06-2004 10:57
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dont forget massive deficit spending from someone who was supposedly fiscally conservative

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Jan 1970
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don't forget Nancy and her astrologer

joncha is offline joncha
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Jan 2003
time: 21:36
  Old Post 07-06-2004 11:04
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This one?

Attachment: joan_quigley_phone_shrunk.jpg
This has been downloaded 101 time(s).

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:36
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yep, that's the one

She set the dates for super power summits as I recall

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
time: 06:36
  Old Post 07-06-2004 11:07
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when america collapses in 100 years, everyone will look back at reagan as the starting point of this collapse.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Oct 1999
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I was reading Z Mag today. This is just surreal, as it came out just days before Reagan's death:



Note #2.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 07-06-2004 11:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And Diss is right. The tech did not exist, it was all 'research'. They used a weapon down the pike to scare the **** out of the Soviets. It was brilliant.


Brilliant?

Everybody knew SDI didn't work, and wouldn't for the foreseeable future. That included the Soviets.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 07-06-2004 11:15
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Yet they pissed their pants about it. Gorby tried to get Reagan to stop SDI on numerous occasions, offering to cut nukes to miniscule levels if he'd just stop. What was Gorby doing? Trying to fake out Reagan?

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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That's just BS Imran. The confrontation policy was ideologically driven, pure and simple. Noone foresaw the Soviet collapse.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Trying to save his ass. Nuclear escalation would play into the hands of the hardliners.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
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time: 00:36
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quote:
The confrontation policy was ideologically driven, pure and simple. Noone foresaw the Soviet collapse.


Perhaps no one did, but Reagan said why this sitting around ****, why not take the fight to them? I never said it wasn't a gamble, but it worked, and big part of it was to try to get the Soviets to fold, but perhaps not completely.

Dis is offline Dis
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
when america collapses in 100 years, everyone will look back at reagan as the starting point of this collapse.




american will not collapse on its own. We may be defeated by terrorists using nuclear weapons, but not of our own accord.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Jan 1970
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The madness of star wars was this - nuclear deterence rested on mutually assured destruction (mad). If one side thought the other side had a shield like star wars then deterence collapsed and the risk of a first strike was very high. So star wars made a nuclear war more rather than less likely.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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Jan 1970
time: 21:36
  Old Post 07-06-2004 11:29 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Imran is right

Gorbachev was scared of SDI and asked for it to be put to a stop several times

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Jan 1970
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The Russians wanted Star Wars stopped for the reason that I gave - that it raised the threat of nuclear war.

Imran is never right - you should know that by now Ted.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 07-06-2004 11:45 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Remove this text

I am right 100% of the time

I said Imran is right

Therefore Imran is right 100% in this instance

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Jan 1970
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The idea the arms race led to the fall of the Soviet Union is also quite wrong.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 07-06-2004 12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yet they pissed their pants about it. Gorby tried to get Reagan to stop SDI on numerous occasions, offering to cut nukes to miniscule levels if he'd just stop. What was Gorby doing? Trying to fake out Reagan?


That showed he was a sensible man. As opposed to Reagan, who was crazy.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Jan 1970
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Actually it was Reagan who offered to cut nukes. At the Iceland Summit he offered to eliminate them altogether in a 4 eyes meeting - which shocked his own advisers as well as Gorbachev.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 07-06-2004 13:03
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Thanks for the correction, grandpa

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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which showed he was lost without a script

MrFun is offline MrFun
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Re: Reagan's Legacy - How will he be remembered? Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Taking Imran's idea, partly to stop people spoiling the moment of silence thread for Reagan's passing, and partly because I was wondering, in light of recent events and his death, how he'll be remembered.

Will he be remembered as a great president who caused an economic boom, showing capitalism working; or an evil mass murderer who precided over someone else's hard won growth? What will textbooks in 20 years time say about him?


I will remember Reagan for helping to create appalling living conditions in Central American countries (mass murdering, extreme poverty, plutocracy).

I will also remember Reagan for being one of the many individuals who was in a position of power and responsibility to take effective action against AIDS when people theorized as early as 1981 or 1982 that AIDS was a sexually transmitted disease. Yet he did too little too late, not because no one knew anything about this disease, but because people did know what this disease was, and he did not care.

I will also remember Reagan for widening the gap of wealth between the American upper class and working class Americans.

I will also remember Reagan for being finiancially irresponsible by increasing spending in national defense programs while cutting spending for other, important domestic areas such as health, education, welfare, and so on.

I will also remember Reagan for being involved in the Iranian Contra scandal.

 
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