15-06-2004 14:09									#91
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quote: Originally posted by alexman After experimenting a bit with the biq file above, I think the tech rate is OK (Small-map OCN and tech rate, huge-map distance corruption, large-map dimensions). However, there might be just too much land for 6 players, although I leave that judgement completely up to Sir Ralph, who has much more experience with these settings.

Assuming 70% water, we have ~420 tiles per player. Theoretically, that's 20 full cities. As seen on alexmans corruption diagram, the treshold of total corruption is somewhere between 15-20 cities, so the whole map could be settled. But that's without counting two factors:

1) The cost per citizen (this includes specialists, right?)
2) The 3 city elimination risk.

The first factor renders corrupt cities inefficient even with very low citizens. Since those are a risk to be lost (low defense bonus), I hope the second factor will take care of this and prevents us from founding useless cities just to grab land. I also hope, the lacking possibility to chop/clear adds to this. But I didn't play with the scenario yet. How did your tests play out regarding space, alex?

	15-06-2004 14:13									#92
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Regarding Barbarians: Keshiks as advanced are fine (ugh... not really ... ). Fortunately, they have a low defense, which may be a savior if you defend your cities well. I understand they won't be wheeled? Does this mean, they can enter jungle, just without their movement bonus?

Will we do anything regarding foot barbarians? Archers, anyone?

	15-06-2004 18:59									#93
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I didn't play very far into the test games and I'm used to tiny to standard maps for PBEMs, so the distance between civs seemed high. No chance for an Archer rush, that's for sure! But perhaps it's OK, if we accept that there will not be much warfare until the ancient age is basically over.

As for foot barbarians, I vote to keep Warriors. That way you don't get random disasters to your initial city that can ruin you in the important initial stages of the game. And we don't want to strengthen expansionists even more in this game, do we?

Keshiks shouldn't be wheeled, IMHO. It will be fun that way, and they will be dangerous well into the industrial age. And what would happen if a wheeled Keshik spawns in the middle of a jungle? He would be stuck there forever!

Last edited by alexman on 15-06-2004 at 19:57

	15-06-2004 19:03									#94
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London is 6 hours ahead of CST, right? if so, I'm best for 12Midnight - 2 AM. Though I can be on almost anytime.

	15-06-2004 19:50									#95
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So it looks the order for the modded game will be

Sir Ralph
Krill
jshelr
alexman
Gamecube64
Rommel2D

Objections?

EDIT: Changed alexman and jshelr (had taken the order from Classics)

Last edited by Sir Ralph on 15-06-2004 at 19:57

	15-06-2004 19:52									#96
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I go after jshelr in a number of PBEMs, so perhaps it's best if we do it that way here too. I can play my turns later at night than he can, and he plays his turns earlier in the morning than I can.

By the way, are we picking civs, or are they going to be random?

	15-06-2004 19:58									#97
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Perhaps we should take civs with UU's in the same age. My proposal would be the medieval age.

	15-06-2004 20:32									#98
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How about something like we all rank our top 5 choices and discard ties, or at least nominate one tribe into the pool and have them assigned randomly?

[edit: Poly was down, so that was a crosspost.

Basically, I'd like anything except completely random or the "I call this Civ" system.]

Last edited by Rommel2D on 15-06-2004 at 21:01

	15-06-2004 20:52									#99
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I like that suggestion. We all nominate an interesting civ for this map, and they get assigned randomly.

I have another suggestion: since we are effectively playing on a small map in terms of number of cities and tech rate, but with all distances stretched out (see my edited post above with the exact specifications), would it make sense to reduce road movement cost to 1/4? That way we can reach each other faster, and we can place our cities farther apart and still be able to defend them.

	15-06-2004 21:08									#100
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That above proposal makes sense, so yeah, I'd like that. Fine with the turn order.

I'd also like to do alexmans proposal of nominating civs:

I pick Korea

	15-06-2004 21:40									#101
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I nominate the Netherlands if we do it that way.

	15-06-2004 21:59									#102
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Good, two selections with a medieval UU. Let's keep it that way!

I nominate Russia.

	15-06-2004 22:14									#103
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India is my choice.

I hope Krill himself ends up with Korea, but as far as I know my luck...

	15-06-2004 23:23									#104
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Just thinking out loud: If I had to pick the two remaining civs with a medieval UU, I would go with China (no Militaristic or Industrious exists so far), and Arabia (to give the Russians some competition for huts). Russ? Rommel?

	15-06-2004 23:42									#105
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I think I'm going to change my choice: I would like this game to be well balanced, and Korea might not help out there. I'd put the Vikings into the pot.

If I were going to pick another two it would be England and Portugal

	15-06-2004 23:44									#106
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I liked Korea! Solid traits and a powerful UU in human hands. I would take Korea over India or a seafaring civ on a pangaea any day!

So if Dominae is checking the map, there is no reason to allow for restarts, right? Also, can we agree to follow the Iron PBEM etiquette and rules (including the optional ones)?

Last edited by alexman on 15-06-2004 at 23:56

	16-06-2004 00:21									#107
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On these settings, Korea would be one of my top choices as well...

	16-06-2004 00:48									#108
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Why? Sea faring civs will get the bonus gold from the centre tile that will help to offset the maintance of the laborers, and to speed research. The UUs will let fast movers go from core to core with out having to spend time going through Jungle and mountain et al at one tile per turn.

While Commercial is normally a good trait, with alexs' corruption changes, I get the picture that they will only have an extra 2 productive cities. While they might make a difference since there are so few (efficient) build queues, a few hills and rivers will surely equal 2 extra rivers?

My main quarrel is that COM and SCI make slow starting civs, but, fine Stick with Korea then.

	16-06-2004 03:28									#109
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I sent a PM to jshelr and Rommel2D to make their civ selections. Since we're getting close, I'm listing the specifications again here for easy reference. So please speak up if you have any objections or concerns for the following:

• AU mod (all changes listed below are relative to AU mod)
  
• All citizens have a 1gpt maintenance
  
• All mounted units (including Samurai) are wheeled
  
• Mobile SAM is wheeled
  
• Settling allowed only on plains, grassland, and flood-plains
  
• Forest impassable to wheeled units.
  
• Road movement cost decreased to 1/4.
  
• Clearing/planting forest/wetlands not allowed.
  
• 3 billion, wet, temperate, large pangaea map with small-map tech rate and corruption.
  
• Distance corruption reduced to huge-map levels. See note below for details.
  
• Emperor level
  
• Raging barbarians, Keshiks as advanced barbarians, privateers as barbarian sea unit.
  
• Strategic resources increased to PTW levels.
  
• Minimum research time increased to 5 turns.
  
• 3-city elimination mode
  
• We follow the Iron PBEM etiquette and exploit list, including optional items.
  

Attachment: tarzancorruption3.jpg
This has been downloaded 60 time(s).

Last edited by alexman on 16-06-2004 at 20:52

	16-06-2004 03:33									#110
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And here is the latest scenario file, in case anyone wants to try it out:

Attachment: tarzan.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

Last edited by alexman on 16-06-2004 at 22:07

	16-06-2004 04:56									#111
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Hm, why is alexman putting the bottom line on Corruption in the fine print?

	16-06-2004 12:26									#112
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Iron PBEM etiquette and rules, including optional ones.

Just to clarify: the IC Tournament Rules are specific to the tournament and wouldn't apply here (will we do any kind of turn timer/ nexting of turns?)

In the rules under the Ettiquette and Exploit List, the options under 1-2 are to be used, but ship chains will be allowed. Is this what you had in mind?

If Dominae is previewing the map I have a proposal: All seafaring tribes be guaranteed a coastal start. If not: Leave all seafaring tribes out of the pool. The map preview destroys the correct odds of coastal starts for seafarers. These tribes are perhaps less powerful with no AI to exploit, so giving them 100% coastal starts might help balance them.

Either way, I'll nominate the Ottomans, to give Russia a sparring partner in the late middle ages.

	16-06-2004 12:33									#113
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I thought I understood Krill's original plan: Put the two worst tribes into the pool so that there will be like a 1-in-100 chance that Sir Ralph and alexman end up with them- then someone else might stand a chance.

quote: Originally posted by alexman I liked Korea! Solid traits and a powerful UU in human hands. I would take Korea over India or a seafaring civ on a pangaea any day!

Now I realize it is all futile. ;-)

	16-06-2004 14:53									#114
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Just a thought...

... would it make sense to give one unit per era "hidden nationality", as I saw in other games? After all this game is about unconventional warfare and harassing each other, so I imagine this could add to the spirit of the game. These units should be available to all, upgrade to each other and expensive to build, so they remain "Special forces".

My candidates would be the Jaguar Warrior (30 shields) and the Guerilla (~135 shields) and some unit in the medieval age (I would imagine a modified gallic swordsman with 3.3.2, costing ~80 shields and available with Feudalism, maybe Chivalry)

Whaddya think?

	16-06-2004 16:14									#115
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If we wait for me to figure all this out before the first turn, we will wait forever....meantime, Alexman asked me to select a civ with medieval UU -- Holland, or China would be fine by me.

	16-06-2004 16:42									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D If Dominae is previewing the map I have a proposal: All seafaring tribes be guaranteed a coastal start. If not: Leave all seafaring tribes out of the pool. The map preview destroys the correct odds of coastal starts for seafarers.

Why? I can arrange things in a disinterested way...

	16-06-2004 19:32									#117
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Seafaring civs: Dominae can arrange the starting positions by civ, not by player, making sure seafaring civs get a coastal start. With only six playable civs, starting the game with random civ assignments will guarantee Dominae's personal safety from the guy without iron.

Iron PBEM rules and etiquette: I edited the post above. We will follow etiquette and banned exploits, but not the rules, obviously.

Corruption in fine print: to give myself a chance, obviously. Seriously, not everyone wants to deal with the corruption numbers. The details are not important as long as you remember that it's best to have as many cities as you would playing on a small map, but they can be more spread out, like playing on a huge map.

Hidden nationality units: Kind of like player-controlled barbarians. I like the idea, but we might be getting too far from the standard game. So I'll go with what the majority wants.

Civilizations: we have our six!

Korea
Netherlands
India
Russia
China
Ottomans

(3 scientific, 2 Industrious, 2 Commercial, 1 Seafaring, 1 Agricultural, 1 Militaristic, 1 Expansionist, 1 Religious)

	16-06-2004 20:45									#118
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Leave out the hidden nationality units, the game will become very complicated if we have them.

And shall we start it soon?

	16-06-2004 20:46									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Why? I can arrange things in a disinterested way...

It all depends on how the random assignments are made. If the map is generated, previewed, and the players placed on the MP setup screen with 'random' selected for their tribes, the Netherlands will have good chance of being landlocked, which will suck for them. I would ask that we restart on any such map.

If you can place starting locations in the scenario and will give them a coastal start, then no problem.

I'm not too keen on the hidden nationality units- I'd prefer a minimalist approach to developing the initial concept (though Jane doesn't go far enough ;-)

	16-06-2004 23:51									#120
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I see that not many people have tried the scenario in SP yet. Hmm, if we find bugs during the game, don't blame me then! I tested it once more, and I think it looks OK.

It feels like a huge-map game because corruption is quite low in the beginning, but with luxury slider expenses, building upkeep, unit support, and citizen costs, the tech rate becomes very slow. Like huge-map games, I would not be surprised to see 50-turn research rates for the first few techs. The difference with real huge maps is that we won't be able to build as many cities, so the tech pace will not accelerate as much, but that's OK because the tech rate here corresponds to a small map anyway. The citizen maintenance becomes less of a factor as libraries/marketplaces are built.

So are you guys ready to start? Krill and I are!

Last edited by alexman on 17-06-2004 at 01:31