16-06-2004 12:18									#301
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Are you afraid for the NDP's prospects if they had to address the Conservatives directly without mommy in the shape of the Liberals to hide behind?

	16-06-2004 12:29									#302
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The Conservatives?

	16-06-2004 16:56									#303
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Who's the other guy? Joe Clark?

Yeah, he looked A LOT like Joe Clark, which is why it made no sense to me...

	16-06-2004 17:58									#304
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For anyone else who missed the debate, you can see the whole thing here.


Does Paul Martin remind anyone else of Porky the Pig?

	16-06-2004 18:24									#305
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm working on my killdozer as we speak.

What was its name again? Daisy Etta? Something like that...

Anyway: on Duceppe looking comfortable. He is better than he used to be and he has been the leader of his party for much longer than any of the others. Experience comes into play.
But the determining factor IMO is that he couldn't care less about the english debate. He's not going to get more votes from it however good his performance is and he can't lose that many either considering who watches it in Quebec.

	16-06-2004 18:49									#306
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Duceppe may have looked comfortable, but he pissed me off when he kept saying "the provinces and Quebec". Until and unless you actually separate, Quebec is a province dickwad, so sit down and shut up.

	16-06-2004 19:12									#307
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My impressions of their performance in the debate:

Harper; Smug, but also avoidant. He was just happy to see everyone tearing apart martin.

Martin; A bumbling idiot.

Layton; A charleton or snakeoil salesman. He tried too hard and usually ended up sounding really fake and contrived.

Duceppe; Direct and upfront.

	16-06-2004 19:39									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Canada is routinely involved in peacekeeping missions without any help from the US. As for the last UN committment that involved Canada, but not the US, it is probably Rwanda. .

The US military provided logistical help to relief operations in Rwanda, as part of "Operation Support Hope".

	17-06-2004 04:19									#309
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, and Liberals are down in Ontario, while the Conservatives will not be split this time.

BTW, in my riding of Richmond Hill, there is both a Consie and a Progressive Consie running.:P

I flirted briefly with the idea of voting for the Greens, but I think I'll go for the NDP. The Greens are running are much more active campaign, but I am not comfortable with their fiscal conservatism.

	17-06-2004 04:43									#310
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A couple of memorable lines... I watched the whole thing.

Harper:

"Quebeckers have a hard choice between Corruption and Seperatism."

Martin - to Harper:

"You don't even accept the science behind climate change. Who could possible trust you on the environment"

Layton, in response:

"You accept the science, so why don't we see any love from you?"

	17-06-2004 04:45									#311
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I agree with the assessment of Harper. Only once did Harper have to take off the gloves, and that was on the point with people who have different opinions from the Liberal party lacking representation on gay marriage.

Layton scored a big point for Harper when he hammered Martin for not allowing a free vote on gay marriage. What is Martin afraid of?

	17-06-2004 04:59									#312
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quote: No kidding. But "zero tolerance" means the Conservatives will not tolerate anything that depicts minors having sex.

No, it doesn't. I suggest you take another look at the policy.

quote: We made exceptions for these cases with the artistic merit clause. After the court case in BC, the law was strengthened by changing "artistic merit" to "public good". In other words, as a defence, the accused would have to show that he/she was serving the public good.

Under the current law, anything goes. You can show pictures of naked children so long as they are 'tastefully' done.

That does nothing to protect children from exploitation, if they are allowed to have these pictures distributed.

quote: This has nothing to do with firearms safety training. If you want to own a gun you have to get a Firearms Aquisition Certificate. To get that licence, you need to take a safety course. So why are the Conservatives promising to create a law that already exists.

Yeah, but there are significant differences in their policies, and your spin will not eliminate those differences. Harper wants to reassure folks that he will keep the Liberal's policy, which is significant.

Heck, Martin had an attack ad on the Conservatives using handguns which have been regulated since the 30's and the new firearms registry does not apply to handguns.

quote: Can you say Kyoto?

Upheld? Don't make me laugh.

quote: Canada pays its UN dues without the help of Americans.

Yeah, but the UN is toothless without military assistance to back up their declarations. Diefenbaker said this 40 years ago, when the UN first formed, and he is spot on. If Canada wants to play a significant role in the UN, they need to supply a military force.

quote: Canada provides financial assistance to dozens of international organisations, without the help of Americans.

Yeah, a whopping half a percent of our budget. Big deal.

quote: Canada is routinely involved in peacekeeping missions without any help from the US. As for the last UN committment that involved Canada, but not the US, it is probably Rwanda.

We can't even ship our peacekeepers to where they are needed without help from the Americans. So yes, they have to help us do our peacekeeping.

quote: In other words, Canada decides its own foreign policy. For the Conservatives to claim that they are the only party with a "Made in Canada" foreign policy is ridiculous.

Canada is a puppet of the US. The only reason we did not go to Iraq is because we had no option to send troops, not because Chretien held us out. Heck, we collaborated as much as we could.

	17-06-2004 07:53									#313
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Sorry, dp

Last edited by Tingkai on 17-06-2004 at 09:36

	17-06-2004 09:10									#314
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Joe Volpe is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally pissing me off on COUNTDOWN with Mike Duffy.

As are most Liberal pundits, lately.

My innards are conflicted.

Current Intra-Cinch Polling Results:

Libs------- 45% (preventatitve measures)
Greens--- 35% (for the future)
NDP------- 15% (for certain reasons)
Cons------ 5% (for their spunk on certain issues)

	17-06-2004 09:51									#315
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About this zero tolerance for child porn thing, Harper is either lying or he's stupid.

I don't think he's stupid, so he must be lying.

Here's what the Conservative platform says:
"Rather than removing the defence of “artistic merit” for child pornographers, the Liberals simply repackaged the old law by including a new defence where child
pornography may be deemed to serve the “public good” – which may be held to include the old loophole of “artistic merit.”

"We will pass legislation that will adopt a zero tolerance policy for child porn, eliminating the so-called “public good” defence."

Harper knows that eliminating the public good defence and taking a zero tolerance approach would mean banning Romeo and Juliet, Lolita and other works of art. He knows damm well that the "public good" defence was designed to cover things like Romeo and Juliet. And there's no way that he would ever implement a "zero tolerance" approach.

What Harper is really doing is lying. He wants to make the Liberals look soft on child porn when they are not (definitely no puns intended).

	17-06-2004 09:54									#316
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yeah, but the UN is toothless without military assistance to back up their declarations. Diefenbaker said this 40 years ago, when the UN first formed, and he is spot on. If Canada wants to play a significant role in the UN, they need to supply a military force. We can't even ship our peacekeepers to where they are needed without help from the Americans. So yes, they have to help us do our peacekeeping. Canada is a puppet of the US. The only reason we did not go to Iraq is because we had no option to send troops, not because Chretien held us out. Heck, we collaborated as much as we could.

You're babbling like a madman.

First you say that the UN is toothless without military assistance, then you acknowledge the basic fact that Canada contributes peacekeepers for the UN.

You say that the US provides transport for our peacekeepers and then you say we had no way of sending troops to Iraq.

	17-06-2004 10:24									#317
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Joe Volpe is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally pissing me off on COUNTDOWN with Mike Duffy. As are most Liberal pundits, lately. My innards are conflicted. Current Intra-Cinch Polling Results: Libs------- 45% (preventatitve measures) Greens--- 35% (for the future) NDP------- 15% (for certain reasons) Cons------ 5% (for their spunk on certain issues)

Have you caught the bits about Darkness marching across the land? How about that NDP fellow in Winnipeg who would rather not breathe the same air as conservatives?

It reminds me of a memorable conversation from my Uni days. I'm sitting with a PHD candidate in philosophy at a favourite student watering hole. He was a past president of the Grad Students Association and sometime wanna-be NDP candidate. Politics comes up and he goes on a rant about Tories. I've known the guy for a bit, and what he is saying seems quite out of character. Silly me, I think I can calm things down a bit. I say in a quiet voice, 'I'm a Tory'.

He stops dead in rant. He turns towards me and accuses, 'you're a Tory?!'

I calmly say 'yes'.

Sploosh, the beer hits my face.

But of course, I'm the extremist.

	17-06-2004 10:40									#318
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You're judging the NDP based on one drunk grad student from long ago? Rather extreme, wouldn't you say.

	17-06-2004 10:44									#319
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No, I'm relating an old story to what was said today.

Do you read much?

	17-06-2004 10:54									#320
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Come on NYE, you can't attack the NDP policies so you have to dredge up an ancient meaningless story. Typical Conservative mud-slinging.

	17-06-2004 11:00									#321
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Are you on some form of cerebral dampening medication?

quote: How about that NDP fellow in Winnipeg who would rather not breathe the same air as conservatives?

Sounds very responsible and nation building to me, or not. Unfortunately, it is nothing new. Too many elections lately have been full of language similar to that and that of the Liberal candidate blathering on about 'darkness' marching across the land.

	17-06-2004 11:11									#322
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Yesterday I was thinking about posting a message about how great it is to see Canadians focusing on the issues in this campaign, instead of screaming insults and arguing about who is more patriotic like our friends south of the border are doing.

And then NYE has to drag things into the mud with his pointless insults.

Stick to the issues!

	17-06-2004 11:20									#323
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This is an issue, dumbass. The complete lack of civility that Layton and Martin demonstrated last night is an issue. The lies, distortion, and scare tactics that have been relied on throughout the campaign by all sides (some less, and some decidedly more) is another issue.

We're not having an election, we're having a contest of stridency. And a lot of people don't like it.

	17-06-2004 11:28									#324
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I'd say I'm sorry for my tone with you, Tingkai, but you ignore the important bits of peoples' posts in some lame attempt to score points. I just don't have patience for it right now. Maybe we should leave each other alone, and things can go back to calm. I too was enjoying it.

	17-06-2004 11:50									#325
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NYE: talk about the issues, don't drag things into the mud.

Whether or not the politicians are polite to each other is not an issue.

Your repeated claims about "lies, distortions and scare tactics" ring hollow when you never provide any concrete examples. (If you want a clear example of lies, distortions and scare tactics, it would be Conservative position on child porn).

So stick to the issues.

Issues are the things that will really affect us. Do you really believe that the Conservatives can cut $16 billion in middle-class income taxes? Can they really cut corporate tax rates by $4 billion. If they can do both, then why not kill the GST instead?

How can conservatives support a party that wants massive tax cuts and massive spending increases.

You're a fiscal conservative. Do you really believe that Harper can do everything he promises and still balance the budget?

	17-06-2004 11:54									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai NYE: talk about the issues, don't drag things into the mud. Whether or not the politicians are polite to each other is not an issue. Your repeated claims about "lies, distortions and scare tactics" ring hollow when you never provide any concrete examples. (If you want a clear example of lies, distortions and scare tactics, it would be Conservative position on child porn). So stick to the issues. Issues are the things that will really affect us. Do you really believe that the Conservatives can cut $16 billion in middle-class income taxes? Can they really cut corporate tax rates by $4 billion. If they can do both, then why not kill the GST instead? How can conservatives support a party that wants massive tax cuts and massive spending increases. You're a fiscal conservative. Do you really believe that Harper can do everything he promises and still balance the budget?

Fine. You wouldn't recognise an issue if it seduced you and then sued you for child support 9 months later.

Good night.

	17-06-2004 12:08									#327
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Your repeated claims about "lies, distortions and scare tactics" ring hollow when you never provide any concrete examples. (If you want a clear example of lies, distortions and scare tactics, it would be Conservative position on child porn).

Examples:

-Liberal campaign spokesmen (Volpe, for example) referring to the Conservative Party as "the Reform-Alliance".

-Ontario Liberal MPs calling the Conservative platform a "dark force".

-Liberal MPs (such as John McCallum) waiting to ambush Stephen Harper at rallies and conferences with cries of social injustice.

And so on.

	17-06-2004 12:47									#328
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Ah, the irony. NYE is crying about the lack of civility in this election, and then proceeds to post message after message filled with insults.


As for your examples Cinch, are they really examples of lies, distortions and scare tactics?

I can understand why calling the Conservatives "the Reform-Alliance" is a scare tactic, but is it that far off the mark?

Honest question for you: What is the difference between the Conservatives and the Reform/CRAP/Alliance other than the name?

As for the other examples, they make the Liberals look like idiots. Dark Force? Who do they think they are? Yoda?

Busting in the PC meeting was not a lie, distortion or scare tactic. It was plain stupidity on the part of the Liberals and just shows how desperate they are.

	18-06-2004 19:44									#329
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	18-06-2004 20:52									#330
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Ha, that's exactly how I felt after watching the english debate.