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Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 04:45
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As for the other examples, they make the Liberals look like idiots. Dark Force? Who do they think they are? Yoda?


Not Yoda...

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 04:48
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quote:

First you say that the UN is toothless without military assistance, then you acknowledge the basic fact that Canada contributes peacekeepers for the UN.

You say that the US provides transport for our peacekeepers and then you say we had no way of sending troops to Iraq.


First of all, peacekeepers! = military support.

Secondly, Canada was unable to get our military over to Iraq without the assistance of the Americans, which was the point that I was trying to make. It's embarrasing to hitch a ride.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 04:49
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How can conservatives support a party that wants massive tax cuts and massive spending increases.

You're a fiscal conservative. Do you really believe that Harper can do everything he promises and still balance the budget?


It's called making the pie bigger.

Also known as Reaganomics

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 04:52
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quote:

We will pass legislation that will adopt a zero tolerance policy for child porn, eliminating the so-called “public good” defence."


Essentially, child porn can serve no public good.

quote:

Harper knows that eliminating the public good defence and taking a zero tolerance approach would mean banning Romeo and Juliet, Lolita and other works of art.


No, it does not, and for reasons already argued in the thread. If this is not true, then the rest of your case falls apart.

The liberals are soft in child porn, as evidenced by what types of things are allowed here in Canada, such as 'tasteful' nudes of 8 year olds.

St Leo is offline St Leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It's called making the pie bigger.

Also known as Reaganomics


Those were proven bunk twenty years ago.

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Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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Oct 2000
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Make me president of the United States.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Those were proven bunk twenty years ago.


'Proven' wrong in 1984, perhaps, but what about now when we have better hindsight?

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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Essentially, child porn can serve no public good.


Dude, Romeo and Juliet is child porn in the eyes of any court of law.

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St Leo is offline St Leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
'Proven' wrong in 1984, perhaps, but what about now when we have better hindsight?


The US is a hollow shell of its former glory as a direct result of Reaganomics. It will collapse the moment white collar jobs are outsourced offshore. The cracks of the colossal Reagan deficits aren't helping.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 06:11
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quote:

Dude, Romeo and Juliet is child porn in the eyes of any court of law.


According to whom?

Conservatives?

Can you find a single conservative with this opinion, that Romeo and Juliet ought to be considered child porn?

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quote:

The cracks of the colossal Reagan deficits aren't helping.


As opposed to the cracks from the tremendous Trudeau deficits?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:11
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http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/analy...ary/papers.html

quote:
Today's Papers
By Peter Kavanagh

June 18, 2004:
Final Edition

Peter Kavanagh

In the News

Ten days before the country goes to the polls, and the election campaign and today's papers are both dominated by polls, party strategies and health care.

"Fresh Onslaught on Tories" (St. John's Telegram), "Harper, Klein will Strip Medicare: PM" (Ottawa Citizen), "Martin Vows to Defend Medicare" (Halifax Chronicle Herald), "Liberals Target Klein, Mulroney" (Globe and Mail) "Klein Threat to Medicare: PM" (Edmonton Journal) were the headlines on some of the papers this morning.

The Liberal party has been quick to pick up on Alberta Premier Ralph Klein's announcement that he would wait until June 30 -- two days after the federal election -- to announce details of changes to Alberta's health-care system. Klein has acknowledged that the planned changes may violate Canada's medicare law. Liberal Leader Paul Martin and his strategists suggested that waiting until after the election was partly to keep the Conservative party's "vision" hidden, and partly in the hope, as Martin said in Chatham Ont., yesterday that Klein will "have a silent partner in Ottawa by the name of Stephen Harper. Someone who will not speak up for the Canada Health Act."

Klein called Martin's comments "mud-slinging," the Alberta health minister called them "desperate and paranoid" and Conservative Leader Stephen Harper accused the Martin of showing an "anti-Western bias." The Calgary Herald would appear to lean towards the perspective of Klein and Harper: " PM Calls Alberta Tories a Threat."

The Montreal Gazette's front-page headline ("It's a Toss-Up"), the Regina Leader-Post's ("Still a Tight Race: Polls"), the National Post's ("Tories and Liberals Stuck in Dead Heat") and the Winnipeg Free Press's "It's A Dead Heat: Polls" capture the sense of the second big story in today's papers -- the polls. The latest COMPAS Poll, done for the CanWest chain in English Canada and the Leger Poll of Quebec done for the Gazette, put the race between the Liberals and the Conservatives at a tie. Compass has the Liberals at 35 per cent, the Conservatives at 34 per cent and the NDP at 17 per cent. Leger has 42 per cent voting Bloc Québécois, 27 per cent voting Liberal, 11 per cent voting Conservative and five per cent voting New Democrat.

The Ottawa Citizen's front page trumpets "Martin's Man Cries Sabotage," which brings in the complications in the polling story. Yesterday, the CanWest chain of papers reported on a leaked Pollara poll that purported to show the Conservatives leaping ahead of the Liberals, 36 per cent to 31 per cent, and heading for a strong minority government. Liberal campaign co-chair David Herle denounced the poll and released the details of some internal polling done by his party that shows the Liberals heading to a minority government with a two-point lead over the Conservatives.

The Ottawa Sun reports on the latest CPAC/SES tracking poll, which shows the Liberals and Conservatives tied at 32 per cent and the NDP at 21 per cent. The Sun headline, "Some Western Voters Would Say 'Oui' to Bloc: Poll" captures the oddest thing about the new CPAC poll. Pollster Nik Nanos said, "We've done 25 days of tracking and we couldn't find one Canadian west of Quebec who would vote for the Bloc. In the last two nights we found a number of them in Western Canada. It's a blip."

The Bloc played a key role in the evolving strategies of the Liberal and Conservative election campaigns. The Edmonton Journal's "Harper Just Says 'Non' to Coalition" and the Ottawa Citizen and Calgary Herald's "No Crazy Alliance with Bloc: Harper" describes the message the Conservative leader took to Quebec on his campaign swing through the province. The Toronto Star captures the Conservative leader's mission as "Harper Heads for the Hills of Martin Country in Quebec." Stephen Harper has repeatedly said Quebecers need an option other than the Bloc or the Liberals and he is hoping the Conservatives can make a breakthrough.

At the same time, Sean Gordon, writing in the Ottawa Citizen ("Top Tories Seek to Muffle Talk of Majority"), reports on the concerns of Conservative insiders that some people on the campaign are getting cocky and "mistaking Liberal disaffection for affection for us." The fear is that the party will appear arrogant, when the reality is that the election could still swing either way.

The evolving Liberal strategy saw the release of new commercials by the party last night. In the Globe and Mail story "Liberals Target Klein, Mulroney," Drew Fagan describes the new television spots and the use of former prime minister Brian Mulroney and former Ontario premier Mike Harris as a code for scaring voters considering voting Conservative. The Toronto Star, "Harper Touts Mulroney, Harris" describes an Ontario campaign stop in North Bay yesterday by the Conservative leader where he praised Mulroney and Harris, saying that "Canada was better off under their stewardship."

The Vancouver Sun reports that NDP Leader Jack Layton's strategy has shifted somewhat from the days when the Liberals and Conservatives were the same: "Layton Warns Harper 'Worse' than Liberals." At a rally yesterday, the Sun reports, Layton didn't stop attacking the Liberals, but he was more critical of the Conservatives. The Toronto Star reports that at a rally in Qualicum Beach, B.C., Layton claimed the NDP was the only party that voters could trust when it came to the environment ("Layton Pushes 'Green' Agenda").

Analysis and commentary

John Ibbitson in his Globe and Mail column ("Liberals' Need to Win Outweighs All") writes that Paul Martin's attack on Ralph Klein yesterday was evidence that the Liberals are hoping the Alberta premier can be to Stephen Harper what Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has been to the federal Liberal party. Ibbitson sees a note of desperation in the move. He argues that Martin, in a bid to win the crucial seats in "Battleground Ontario," is willing to play to Ontario's worst fears of Westerners, Conservatives and the Bloc Québécois. All that matters is assuring the Conservatives don't get a minority government, then reveal all the Liberal dirty laundry and win a subsequent massive majority based on the record of Liberal mismanagement. "To prevent that, anything is fair game. Stitching up the wounds to the federation can wait. Southern Ontario has to be won."

Don Martin, the Calgary Herald and CanWest columnist, tackles Martin's attacks on Klein and Harper on health care in the column "PM Accuses Alberta of Health-Care Conspiracy." Similar to Ibbitson, Don Martin argues, "When you're down, drowning and desperate in Ontario, it's time for all good Liberals to haul out the Alberta bogeyman."

The Toronto Star's editorial this morning tackles Stephen Harper's calculations about the Conservative platform: "Take a Close Look at Harper's Budget." The Star writes that the numbers behind the Harper budget are one of the most controversial aspects to this election campaign, with Paul Martin talking about a $50-billion hole and "many top economists, some with deep conservative ties, are dismissing Harper's platform as financially unworkable." The Star thinks voters need to understand that the budget means big cuts in "everything from food inspections to federal prisons and Canada's space program."

Sounding out Senate reform

Don MacDonald in the Halifax Chronicle Herald ("Shaking Up the Senate, Canvassing a Cabinet") looks at Stephen Harper's plan for an incremental reform of the Senate, which got a boost yesterday from New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord, and explores why many Nova Scotians are anxious for a discussion of a new design for the Senate.

The Globe and Mail editorial "The Folly of Rushing into Senate Elections" makes the argument that the Senate "as it stands is ripe for abolition," but that in reality this demands constitutional reform not the incremental change currently contemplated by the Conservative platform. The Globe says there are real legal and philosophical grounds for changing the institution thoroughly and constitutionally. The Conservative plan may resonate with Canadians but it is not the best way to go.

The National Post ("Two Es Are Better than None") argues that the incremental Senate reforms planned by the Conservatives and endorsed by Bernard Lord are good first steps. The Post argues that the Senate plays an important constitutional role in Canada and needs to be made more modern and more relevant. While fixing the institution is the ultimate goal, the Post would like to see the task started.

"Harper's Proposal for Senate is Facile," a column by Susan Riley in the Ottawa Citizen, criticizes the Conservative plan for Senate reform as out of touch with the political and constitutional realities of the country. Riley argues you can't really reform the senate without opening up the Constitution and she observes that veterans of the Meech Lake and Charlottetown Accord know what a nightmare that is. She goes on in her column to examine the number of flaws she sees in Harper's proposal and ultimately concludes it isn't grounded in the hard realities of Canadian political life. This issue hardly trumps health care or fiscal accountability on the hustings. But the closer Harper comes to power, the more closely his rivals should examine what looks like a facile proposal.


Tomorrow's edition will be considerably uglier.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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May 2001
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Indeed. Especially after the Conservatives put out a press release which carried the headline "Martin Supports Child Pornography".

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/06/1...hy_martin040618

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:22
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In short, someone at 'Tory' HQ ****ed up, big time.

The one thing Harper had going for him was actually being different, not just saying he was. The **** that came out today, of Martin being 'for kiddie rapers' could well cost not only the Conservatives the election, but Canada 2 or 4 more years wherein Martin can relax and bury the bodies of the Chretien years. We all know there are some bodies, yes?

I can't believe it. The Conservatives were winning this election, despite misgivings by many east of Thunder Bay, on the record of Liberal slime and the backlash against a negative Liberal campaign (that's how I see it). Now some **** or two at HQ is risking blowing it all by being dirtier and slimier at the same time. That is quite a feat!. Unfreakingbelievable.

Where is that Green party candidate? They are fiscally responsible, aren't they?

Oh crap! Wake me up in a hundred years. OK?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:26
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Indeed. Especially after the Conservatives put out a press release which carried the headline "Martin Supports Child Pornography".


They did the same, but to the entire NDP caucus.

When you have a shot gun and you feel frustrated, or like sabotaging a campaign, better make sure you hit everybody.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:29 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Dude, I'm telling you: red Tories like you got the ****ing shaft when the Alliance raped the PC and took their name.

They should have been more careful when they made a deal with the devil.

Harper is a ****ing extremist. The whole CA wing of the Conservatives is. They've been trying to keep a lid on it, but this ain't your parents' Oldsmobile...

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:31 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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And yeah, I think the Grits are long overdue for a kick in the nuts. But today's Conservative party is not one that I want to see anywhere near the PMO.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:35
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... and exhibit A from the other side.

I really thought it should be Tingkai.

Harper is about as extreme as a popsicle. What is it with 'you people'? You see a Conservative from Alberta and assume the apocalypse is coming on.

Where he ****ed up today was in being loyal to staffers and not firing someone's ass.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
And yeah, I think the Grits are long overdue for a kick in the nuts. But today's Conservative party is not one that I want to see anywhere near the PMO.


Some time or other, kitty. It's gotta happen.

Hope they get a minority. They aren't ready for a majority. But the Liberals can't be left in there forever.

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  Old Post 19-06-2004 12:42 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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BS on the Harper deal. He keeps his mouth shut, but read some of the **** he wrote before he was a politico.

And I'm looking at a Tory from Alberta right now. I didn't blink when you called yourself a centrist because you are. Harper's a wolf in sheep's clothing and always has been.

I don't think Harper's an evil man. I just think that his vision of what Canada is differs greatly from my own and from that of the bulk of voters in the East.

He's not a religious nut like Day, but I don't want him with the power to break anything we've worked to build for the last 30 years.

So back off the bigotry bullshit. And read Harper's response to the uproar. He's trying to hammer Martin on a nonissue. Bless the gods for biting him in the ass on it.

Seeker is offline Seeker
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Things out lawed by the CA (or whatever they call themselves now) by a strict reading of their porn platform:

-Kenneth Branagh's MacBeth
-the Tin Drum (german anti-war film)
-Ancient greek artwork, greek and roman plays (if illustrated), statuary
-a frank historical document of the behaviour of various popes, kings and emperors as we have seen right here on apolyton.
-That french artist who drew the 19th century painting of nude children warming themselves in front of a fire after a bath.
-The slideshow my dad just e-mailed me of my baby nephew.
etc etc etc

Clearly, an artistic taste/public good clause is needed to prevent the fundies from censoring anything that their 'children have original sin, sexualize everything' view finds offensive.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
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Aug 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
First of all, peacekeepers! = military support.

Secondly, Canada was unable to get our military over to Iraq without the assistance of the Americans, which was the point that I was trying to make. It's embarrasing to hitch a ride.


All the political parties are in favour of increased military spending including transport aircraft, but Harper is going overboard. He wants a military that can fight the Cold War. He wants to fight yesterday's war.

The current strategy of the Canada Armed Forces is to create a force that can be deployed quickly and mainly by airlift. Buying MBTs designed for conventional war doesn't make sense.

Harper says we need helicopter carriers because Canada used a carrier as a transport ship during the 1956 Suez crisis. He's stuck in the past.

Seeker is offline Seeker
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Militarily the most pressing thing is:

a) modernized helicopters, we should not have these senseless Sea King deaths.

b) modernized fighters: in a 'real' war Canada's most important contribution is strike aircraft. Sooner or later we need to replace the CF-18 with C F/A-18 which can work well with NATO forces.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
You see a Conservative from Alberta and assume the apocalypse is coming on.


You do know that Harper was born and raised in Toronto.

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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
BS on the Harper deal. He keeps his mouth shut, but read some of the **** he wrote before he was a politico.

And I'm looking at a Tory from Alberta right now. I didn't blink when you called yourself a centrist because you are. Harper's a wolf in sheep's clothing and always has been.

I don't think Harper's an evil man. I just think that his vision of what Canada is differs greatly from my own and from that of the bulk of voters in the East.

He's not a religious nut like Day, but I don't want him with the power to break anything we've worked to build for the last 30 years.

So back off the bigotry bullshit. And read Harper's response to the uproar. He's trying to hammer Martin on a nonissue. Bless the gods for biting him in the ass on it.


Actually, he's biting on Martin with some reason, and a lot of very pissed off people agree with him in the wake of a court case yesterday. However, the way the issue was sent out today is what is now the issue.

Harper's vision for Canada differs from yours based on ideology. Right vs left and such. If you can say extremist about him, others could say extremist about Layton, but we both know that's not how these questions get framed, don't we?

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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
Things out lawed by the CA (or whatever they call themselves now) by a strict reading of their porn platform:


Based on what said by whom, where?

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
According to whom?
Conservatives?
Can you find a single conservative with this opinion, that Romeo and Juliet ought to be considered child porn?


No one believes that R&J is child porn, but think of the definition of child pornography. It's something that portrays people under 18 having sex. If we take an extreme "zero tolerance" approach using this definition then R&J would fall under child porn. We don't want this to happen so we create an exemption for works of artistic merit. The BC case showed how this exemption could be abused so the Government added the condition requiring that the art must serve the public good.

So the law works. Real child porn is banned while works of art like R&J are not.

Understand?

The Conservatives want to change that by banning anything that might involve minors having sex. That's crazy because it is too extreme.

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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
Militarily the most pressing thing is:

a) modernized helicopters, we should not have these senseless Sea King deaths.

b) modernized fighters: in a 'real' war Canada's most important contribution is strike aircraft. Sooner or later we need to replace the CF-18 with C F/A-18 which can work well with NATO forces.


You're right about the helicopters, but the second most important thing we need to do is to increase the size of the Forces to meet our international commitments. I agree with the Conservatives platform of adding 30,000 more troops, but that is going to cost about $3.5 billion a year.

The third thing the Forces need is better Command, Control and Communications equipment like the digital communications equipment used by the Americans.

The CF-18s are already being upgraded so there's no pressing need to buy new fighters or upgrade them more like the Conservatives want to do.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Layton is an extremist. So am I.

That's why we're not in line for an NDP government any time soon.

But people know what they're voting for when they vote for Jack. People don't know what they're getting into when they vote for Steve. The guy is as far to the right on economic issues as Layton is to the left.

It's interesting that you immediately believe the best when this **** comes out of the Conservatives, but if someone attacks Harper in much more moderate terms than claiming he ****s little kids, it must have been personally authorised by Paul Martin.

The Conservatives have barely been able to keep themselves from talking themselves into the history books. Harper's had to muzzle his own candidates because they've been embarassing him. Why should we trust anything which comes out of their mouths?

Half of the high-profile Tories defecting (including the entire Atlantic caucus) when Harper took over should have been a sign...

 
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