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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:36
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His thesis is that terrorism is the negation of liberalism, and that the fulfillment of liberalism requires a muscular stance against BOTH AQ style Islamism, and against Baathism. That unfortunately too many liberals dont recognize this, but OTOH, the current Bush admin, is not fighting the WOT in the liberal way it must be fought - IE not enough emphasis on nation building and democracy promotion.
Hes hawkish, including pro- invasion of Iraq, but not pro-Bush, and definitely pro-liberal (actually hes more or less a democratic socialist, so hes using liberal in a particular sense). Very well written, very erudite.
Kinda like Hitchens, but calmer. And more pro-Israel than Hitchens - though not pro-Likud.
Bermans book described at Amazon
quote:
Berman puts his leftist credentials (he's a member of the editorial board of Dissent) on the line by critiquing the left while presenting a liberal rationale for the war on terror, joining a discourse that has been dominated by conservatives. The most original aspect of his analysis is to categorize Islamism as a totalitarian reaction against Western liberalism in a class with Nazism and communism; drawing on the ideas of Camus in The Rebel, Berman delineates how all three movements descended from utopian visions (in the case of Islamism, the restoration of a pure seventh-century Islam) into irrational cults of death. He illustrates this progression through a nuanced analysis of the writings of a leading Islamist thinker, Sayyid Qutb, ending with some chilling quotations from other Islamists, e.g., "History does not write its lines except with blood," the blood being that of Islam's martyrs (such as suicide bombers) as well as of their enemies, Zionists and Crusaders (i.e., Jews and Christians). Berman then launches into his most provocative chapter, and the one he will probably be most criticized for in politically correct journals: a scathing attack on leftist intellectuals, such as Noam Chomsky, who have applauded terrorism and tried to explain it as a rational response to oppression. Berman exhorts readers to accept that, on the contrary, Islamism is a "pathological mass political movement" that is "drunk on the idea of slaughter." A former MacArthur fellow and a contributing editor to the New Republic, Berman offers an argument that will be welcomed by disaffected progressives looking for a new analysis of today's world. |
Last edited by lord of the mark on 08-06-2004 at 18:50
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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Let's see...
hallmarks for fascism:
*** Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission. - CHECK
*** Aggressive militarism even to the extent of glorifying war as good for the national or individual spirit. - CHECK
*** Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others - CHECK
*** Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate. - CHECK
*** Cult of personality around a charismatic leader. - UNSURE (yes wrt terrorist groups such as Hamas and Al Qaida, no wrt Iran or Sudan).
*** Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism. - CHECK
*** Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk to join voluntarily in a heroic mission_often metaphysical and romanticized in character. - CHECK
*** Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy_seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them. - CHECK
*** The self image of being a superior form of social organization beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy. - UNSURE (islam does consider itself superior to socialism/capitalism/democracy, but views itself not "beyond" them, but before them. Sorta a "honourable barbarian" thing. Going back to their roots, instead of going beyond the current paradigms)
*** Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society. - CHECK
*** Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power. - NO CHECK (they're mostly purists, after all)
Most fit, it seems...
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by problem_child
Is Islam a form of Fascism?
Mussolini, the creator of fascism, defined it in these terms
'Everything within the State, Nothing outside the State, Nothing against the State'
Muslims have a similar attitude to Islam, for a good muslim
Everything must be within Islam, Nothing can be outside of Islam, Nothing can be against Islam.
Considering Sharia law, where Islam and State become one in the Law of the Land, I have to wonder, what argument can make the term Islamic Fascism a nonsense? |
hi ,
fascism is a to good thing to be compared with it .....
sharia law ? that just s*cks , taking a persons hand for the theft of a 2 cent item , .... no way that can be considered to be *law*
have a nice day 
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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Pan-Arabism was the middle eastern-flavoured fascism predominate a few decades ago. Islamism was opposed to pan-arabism from the start and has, due to pan-arabism's failings, replaced it as the extreme idealogy of the arab world.
pan-arabism is the fascist one... not islamism.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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Saint Marcus:
quote:
*** Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission. - CHECK |
how in god's name is this a check? there is no nationalism in any islamic terrorist organization. Al Qaeda is made up of Tunisians, Algerians, Egyptians, Saudis, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, Chechnyans, Indonesians, Malaysians, etc. there's no currents of nationalism in islamism.
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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Let's see...
hallmarks for fascism:
*** Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission. - CHECK
*** Aggressive militarism even to the extent of glorifying war as good for the national or individual spirit. - CHECK
*** Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others - CHECK
*** Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate. - CHECK
*** Cult of personality around a charismatic leader. - UNSURE (yes wrt terrorist groups such as Hamas and Al Qaida, no wrt Iran or Sudan).
*** Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism. - CHECK
*** Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk to join voluntarily in a heroic mission_often metaphysical and romanticized in character. - CHECK
*** Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy_seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them. - CHECK
*** The self image of being a superior form of social organization beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy. - UNSURE (islam does consider itself superior to socialism/capitalism/democracy, but views itself not "beyond" them, but before them. Sorta a "honourable barbarian" thing. Going back to their roots, instead of going beyond the current paradigms)
*** Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society. - CHECK
*** Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power. - NO CHECK (they're mostly purists, after all)
Most fit, it seems... |
Pretty much every country in the world is fascist then...
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
Saint Marcus:
how in god's name is this a check? there is no nationalism in any islamic terrorist organization. Al Qaeda is made up of Tunisians, Algerians, Egyptians, Saudis, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, Chechnyans, Indonesians, Malaysians, etc. there's no currents of nationalism in islamism. |
Though I do *not* think Islam is facist, I disagree strongly here. Ever heard of the "Umma" (sp?), the imaginary Pan-Muslim/Pan-Arab (depending on who is blathering about it) state?
Note that there is a difference between Islam and being an Islamist.
-Arrian
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I do view fascism as inherently nationalistic and rightfully so. Simply a rejection of liberalism does not make something fascist. Maybe Berman should, I don;t know, coin a new term? That is possible. |
Gepap, I suggested some months ago that you read Bermans book. Its not that its the greatest book every written, or whatever, but im gonna have to do an Imran ("LOTM, you sure talk alot about GTA for someone who's never played it") on you - you really SHOULD read the book for yourself. I dont suppose it will convince you, but it will be preferable to my trying to make Berman's points for him. The argument he makes for considering Qutbism as a form of fascism explicitly addresses the question of nationalism, and in quite a nuanced way, IIRC. He does not simply call it fascism because its a rejection of liberalism, but because its a particular kind of rejection of liberalism.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 08-06-2004 at 22:05
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Last Conformist
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of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:36
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I assume the question is whether Islamism is a form of Fascism?
I think not, unless a hopelessly wide definition of Fascism is adopted (I've, afterall, run into folks who've seriously argued that, among other movements, the American Democratic Party and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union are/were Fascist). Islamism is, in principle, universalistic, while I consider nationalism as an absolute requirement of Fascisthood. As others have pointed out, secular Pan-Arabism/Arab Nationalism are better candidates.
The Ummah is, by anyone with pretensions of orthodoxy, defined as a community of faith, not of race or nation.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
I assume the question is whether Islamism is a form of Fascism?
I think not, unless a hopelessly wide definition of Fascism is adopted (I've, afterall, run into folks who've seriously argued that, among other movements, the American Democratic Party and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union are/were Fascist). Islamism is, in principle, universalistic, while I consider nationalism as an absolute requirement of Fascisthood. As others have pointed out, secular Pan-Arabism/Arab Nationalism are better candidates.
The Ummah is, by anyone with pretensions of orthodoxy, defined as a community of faith, not of race or nation. |
and again, as Berman, points out, fascism, as a reaction against modernity, adopts to what works as a reaction again in the local cultural context. In Italy that was more or less pure ultranationalism, but it was NOT racist, and could include Jews (until the German alliance pressured Italy to adopt race laws). In Germany it was ultra-nationalism with a significant admixture of racism, which at various points led to conflicts with more traditional notions of German nationalism. In Spain it was nationalism that was closely associated with the universal Catholic Church, in a way that would have been quite foreign to German or Italian fascism. In a traditional Islamic context, a violent reaction against modernity would naturally NOT be nationalist, but would center around the Ummah instead. Berman identifies the core of fascism NOT in ultranationalism, but in a cult of death and violence, and a revulsion at the "moral breakdown" associated with liberalism and modernity.
Reading Berman, one of the first questions one must ask, is "Was Francoism fascist" Its quite possible to argue that it wasnt, and this weakens Bermans argument considerably.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No. Fascism is a mass movement that requires an advanced industrialized society. It is possible there could be an Islamic based fascist movement in a country like Malaysia or Singapore, where the economic base for fascism exists, but Islamic fundimentalism is not fascism.
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communism is a mass movement of the working class. Does it therefore follow that communism cant exist in a pre-industrial society?? Obviously, there are individual communists and even communist parties in societies that dont have the class base for a mass party. Which means that said party cant come to power, or can do so only with considerable contradictions. I would think the same could be said about "islamo-fascism" - in states without a working class base - like Afghanistan, or Yemen, or the Pashtun areas of Pakistan - islamofascism is an "adventurist" ideology, without real roots, and which is forced into alliance with local purely "feudalist" reactionary movements. Im not sure the same can be said about the movement in more urbanized countries like Algeria, Egypt, or even Saudi Arabia - let alone the appeal of the movement to muslim students living temporarily in the West.
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08-06-2004 17:07
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