09-06-2004 21:56									#121
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Gepap:

quote: The Nazi did not take over the Churches, and in fact they were generally anti-Christian

bullshit meter just went up...

explain the standard Wehrmacht belt buckle with the words "Gott Mit Uns"

	09-06-2004 21:56									#122
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My take on fascism:

Fascismis a modern political ideology. Important factors that make it fascism as opposed to other theories:

1. Mass POlitics- Fascism seeks to engage the masses in a grand movement

2. National Identity as core of consciousness. What I mean by that is that the fascism sees Mans most important identity being formed by culture, not economics (socialism)-and the most important grouping of men then is the nation, which is built out of that shared cultural identity.

3. Confused about the future: Fascists are inherently reactionary in that they invoke the common cultural heritage they see as having being the basis of the nation and use it as the reality that gives them legitimacy. It makes sense then to trying to make it stronger-at the same time, they are radicals, as they seek to remake the state and build mass politics, which is general will either conflict with the less popular (as in more exclusive) politics of the day, or destroy the existing parlimentary system in power.

	09-06-2004 21:57									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Gepap: bullshit meter just went up... explain the standard Wehrmacht belt buckle with the words "Gott Mit Uns"

Ah, cause the Wehrmacht and the Nazi Party were not the same thing?

HELLO!

	09-06-2004 21:58									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Thank you for your input, Mr. 19th-Century. Now please go back to your own time. That's pretty ironic, coming from an avowed communist...

That went over your head completely, didn't it.

	09-06-2004 22:00									#125
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I, personally, define Fascism as a kind of applied nationalism, basically nationalism with lots of emphasis on the military, and a tendency to be a policy state. Scapegoating, witch hunts, totalitarian communism may feature too.

	09-06-2004 22:02									#126
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Cruddy:

quote: Islam, being about 10 times bigger than Judaism

1.4 Billion muslims in the world as opposed to 14 million jews. 1000 times more Muslims than Jews.

	09-06-2004 22:03									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy isms and icities suck

I thought you are into Libertarianism?

	09-06-2004 22:03									#128
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quote: That went over your head completely, didn't it.

No. I guess this is your response to my dead-on comment, though, isn't it? Why can't we just hug, fellow anachronism?

	09-06-2004 22:05									#129
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Gepap:

those three you mentioned could be used to describe anything. all populist politics (not as in the idealogy buit as in opposed to establishment politics) cater to mass movements... those opposing the marxist view of dialectic materialism are forced into the fascistic cultural view of the world... and uncertainty about the future.

Republicans and democrats would be fascists by those standards.

	09-06-2004 22:06									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Cruddy: 1.4 Billion muslims in the world as opposed to 14 million jews. 1000 times more Muslims than Jews.

Maybe that means a Muslim is 1,000 more times open to stereotyping than a Jew?

I'd have thought that 14 mill figure is a little too low... I mean, is it a count of all the people born of Jewish mothers or is it all those that have had a Bar Mitvah or what?

Does it include the "lapsed" community who profess they aren't Jewish or indeed interested in being Jewish?

Where is the line drawn?

These are all rhetorical questions - you can see why I was not aiming to be too specific.

	09-06-2004 22:07									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: That went over your head completely, didn't it. No. I guess this is your response to my dead-on comment, though, isn't it? Why can't we just hug, fellow anachronism?

I'll consider it when I see a Runza.

	09-06-2004 22:07									#132
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quote: Imran, but religions have dramatically changed/destroyed cultures. The various germanic cultures of the dark ages were drastically changed with their conversion to christianity... the ancient Persian culture, steeped in zoroastrianism, merged with the culture of the muslim arabs, disappearing as a distinct culture.

Most of the time they have adopted cultural practices and used it as their own. After all, Easter and Christmas were originally pagan rituals. And in different countries, the religion is a bit different, based on the local culture.

	09-06-2004 22:08									#133
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quote: basically nationalism with lots of emphasis on the military, and a tendency to be a policy state.

the militarization of the broad of society should also be considered an aspect of fascism.

the problem with this thread is that one has to assume too much to answer the question. first we were arguing over Islam vs Islamism... then what is Islamism... then what is fascism?

	09-06-2004 22:11									#134
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Nationalism isn't primary to fascism. What is primary to fascism is rage against modern society.

God, being the inconsiderate bastard He is, did not provide us with a list of definitive and universal definitions of political terms. Therefore our definitions are arbitrary, and only work as long as both sides of a discussion use the same ones.

Yours, and, I gather, Berman's, is, then, no more inherently wrong than any other. I however consider it to be bad from a practical PoV, since it agrees neither with what the average joe on the street understands under the term, nor with what the people who developed an ideology they called Fascism considered it to be.


If we were more interested in furthering understanding than in lengthy discussions that do not lead anywhere in particular, we'd drop the question whether Islamism should be labeled 'Fascism', and instead speak of its practical importance and relevance, and perhaps to of its merits (or lack thereof) as an ideological system. Comparisons with European '30s Fascism may or not be considered relevant or enlightening, but do no hinge on whether we unify both under a label of "Fascism".

	09-06-2004 22:12									#135
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Imran:

quote: And in different countries, the religion is a bit different, based on the local culture.

of course there's slight differences between christianity in Peru with christianity in Italy or something but most of the differences you are attesting to are differences in the religion themselves. Russian christianity has always been different from Italian christianity not because of cultural differences prior to conversion as much as because of different religions (orthodox as opposed to catholicism) being spread to the respective areas. similiarily, i don't think you could say English or german christianity was much different than their french or spanish variants until the protestant reformation when new faiths appeared.

granted, you could argue that protestantism as opposed to catholicism gained support in England and germany because of pre-existing cultural reasons but then why didn't the protestant phenomenum occur centuries before? why did Catholicism even take hold in these areas if their cultures were set for a more protestant-like religion?

	09-06-2004 22:13									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Gepap: those three you mentioned could be used to describe anything. all populist politics (not as in the idealogy buit as in opposed to establishment politics) cater to mass movements... those opposing the marxist view of dialectic materialism are forced into the fascistic cultural view of the world... and uncertainty about the future. Republicans and democrats would be fascists by those standards.

1. You are correct, all modern politics are mass politics. That is what joins Fascism with modern democracy as opposed to absolute monarchies.

2. Here you are wrong. The modern democratic worldview would posit that the most important identity for men was particuaristic-their own personal experiences, both class and nation, and that neither was the most important.

3. I said confusion, not uncertainty. Fascists want both to "return former glory", but do so through a modern state machine, not simply by "returning to the old ways"

	09-06-2004 22:16									#137
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quote: The modern democratic worldview would posit that the most important identity for men was particuaristic-their own personal experiences, both class and nation, and that neither was the most important.

while the Enlightenment thinkers were very individualistic-centered (hmm... Nietzsche, the proto-existentialist with the most extreme form of individualism greatly influenced facism... Hitler saying such things as the individual must never succomb to the majority), maybe due to their pre-marxist time period, class was never a major issue as far as i know.

	09-06-2004 22:51									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I thought you are into Libertarianism?

I'm drunk, hence I'm allowed to be hypocritical.

quote: the militarization of the broad of society should also be considered an aspect of fascism.

That's what I'm saying, I consider fascism to be a kind of applied nationalism, facism putting into place the degree of militarisation. Nationalism is basically idiocy, fascism is what happens when idiots get power.

	09-06-2004 22:53									#139
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However I agree, this thread is basically going to go round and round in circles, people trying to extract some serious points and debate from a topic devised by someone who is trying to troll Islam to make him more secure in the face of broadcast and differed insecurity and misery. The only way this debate is going to end is either in flame or semantics.

	09-06-2004 22:53									#140
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nationalism is idiocy? explain.

i'm still not buying Gepap and his democratic alternative to dialectic materialism. it seems to me that the only opposing historical theory to Marx's idea of constant class struggle is the fascist (Max Weber?) theory of national and cultural conflict as the motivations for everything in history.

	09-06-2004 22:56									#141
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quote: of course there's slight differences between christianity in Peru with christianity in Italy or something but most of the differences you are attesting to are differences in the religion themselves.

No, I'm also talking about differences in Catholicism. For being the universal Church, there exists cultural differences. For example, a lot Latin American churchs have embraced some part of liberation theology, while a majority of the rest of the Church says it is wrong.

quote: you could argue that protestantism as opposed to catholicism gained support in England and germany because of pre-existing cultural reasons but then why didn't the protestant phenomenum occur centuries before?

It wasn't for lack of trying. Look up people like Hus and the conflicts HRE from Germany had with the Popes of Italy (especially Frederick II).

	09-06-2004 22:59									#142
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quote: But what resulted in the English allowing more protestant reforms? What was different in Germany as compared to Italy? It was a difference in culture which broke Europe up the way it was. Northern Germanic peoples were much more independant due to their history and thus more embracing of Protestantism.

actually, it might make more sense to claim that the reasons for n. europe's embracing of protestantism were reasons of agency... n. european leaders (such as Henry VIII) used protestantism as an excuse to increase their royal power and the power of their kingdoms/duchies. protestantism only survived because of the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire which had been occuring for centuries since Charlemagne and the Emperor, Karl V, inability to exercise any control over the hundreds of independent duchies (not a strictly german phenomenum either as Italy had a similiar situation). had the Empire been stronger centuries before both in Germany and Italy (it's weakness was not due to culture, i think it can be assumed), theoretically, Karl would have had the power to crush the protestants and germany would still be catholic. issues of agency allowed protestantism to form

	09-06-2004 22:59									#143
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quote: nationalism is idiocy? explain.

Watch the history channel or read Milgram .

In short, default human reaction when faced with difference is limited "span of sympathy" which to overcome, places a heavy load on the intellect, so it's simpler for people to become psychologically attached to their nations, religions, ideas, whatever and "fall in love" with them. The trouble with that is that it breeds intellectual dishonesty where people stick by their guns in the face of a more convincing argument that refutes theirs (and even they will admit that) and it leads to wars, death, and an easy ride for leaders who in order to get what they want, need to "bang the drums of patriotism" (Caesar) or "tell [the people] they are under attack" (Goering). Add to that your basic existentialist or relativist tirade (see most of the threads I've ever posted on) and it becomes clear that patriotism/nationalism is for the blind, dogmatic and the simplistic. (Happy people in other words).

	09-06-2004 22:59									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer nationalism is idiocy? explain. i'm still not buying Gepap and his democratic alternative to dialectic materialism. it seems to me that the only opposing historical theory to Marx's idea of constant class struggle is the fascist (Max Weber?) theory of national and cultural conflict as the motivations for everything in history.

You assume people buy the notion of a historical dialetic in the first place. Even if you accept a historical dialetic, why on earth are the dialetics of Weber and Marx the only choices?

	09-06-2004 23:00									#145
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quote: It wasn't for lack of trying. Look up people like Hus and the conflicts HRE from Germany had with the Popes of Italy (especially Frederick II).

thats all issues of agency not structure (culture)

	09-06-2004 23:02									#146
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quote: issues of agency allowed protestantism to form

North Germany had always been a problem area. Lots of 'reformers' sprung up from there, and they recieved lots of following. That is shown by seeing which princes and dukes swiched to Luther's protestantism. Also, Poland was much more tolerant than the rest of Catholicism, due its own history, and refused to cast out the Jews when the other parts of Catholic Christianity did. There was simply different mindsets in Northern Europe and Southern Europe about these things.

And saying that if they were stronger than nothing would have happened is a silly argument. It wasn't a problem of 'agency'. If that were the case then you'd have 40 different Catholic Churches around and not the radically different Protestant sects which were more based on the primacy of the individual.

	09-06-2004 23:02									#147
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quote: You assume people buy the notion of a historical dialetic in the first place.

you're right. i am assuming this but Western philosophy has always been dialectic in nature since Plato's Republic.

quote: Even if you accept a historical dialetic, why on earth are the dialetics of Weber and Marx the only choices?

name an alternative. and something sensible; not kropotkin or god knows what.

	09-06-2004 23:04									#148
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Imran:

The Benedictines were a French reforming order... there were numerous such orders all through southern europe... the Franciscans... that group whose name i can't remember but stressed poverty... germany was not unique in having a long history of reforming clergy

	09-06-2004 23:04									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer you're right. i am assuming this but Western philosophy has always been dialectic in nature since Plato's Republic.

That is not the same as saying that people believe in a historical dialectic. I don;t seem much hint of one in thinkers such as Hobbes or Locke.

quote: name an alternative. and something sensible; not kropotkin or god knows what.

Of the top of my head, I do not know of one.

	09-06-2004 23:06									#150
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German reformers were more likely to be branded as heretics however. Benedictines and Franciscans were praised by the Church and really didn't do anything to shake the boat. The Germans... well, they treaded on heresy all the time.

It was an issue of culture, not agency. Spain was perhaps more powerful than Rome in the 1500s, but because of its culture it stayed Catholic (well Counter-Reformed). If it was more like Germany in outlook, it EASILY could have seperated itself.