09-06-2004 19:14									#91
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I've heard enough from you to realize that he's full of crap. Anyone that asserts nationalism isn't primary to Fascism isn't worth me reading.

	09-06-2004 19:28									#92
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Imran:

you can always leave your nationality... it's called emmigation.

you may say no but some countries don't allow easy leaving which is true but some countries also dominated by religious laws punish apostacy.

	09-06-2004 20:06									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I've heard enough from you to realize that he's full of crap. Anyone that asserts nationalism isn't primary to Fascism isn't worth me reading.

yeah, the same way ive heard enough from you to realize GTA is crap.

	09-06-2004 20:09									#94
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quote: you can always leave your nationality... it's called emmigation.

If you are a German national and leave the German state, you are still German, even if you change your citizenship. Nationality has no bearing on states.

	09-06-2004 20:40									#95
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what are you talking about Imran? Then the entire concept of America, a land of assimiliation, the melting pot, is a sham?

and anyway, one could say the same thing about being of a particular religion. you will always be muslim or christian in the eyes of some... or even worse, an apostate or heretic.

	09-06-2004 20:44									#96
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quote: what are you talking about Imran? Then the entire concept of America, a land of assimiliation, the melting pot, is a sham?

American nationality is MUCH different than European nationality. It's much more of an outlier and sometimes I wonder if there really is an American nation at all. A nation is a group of people with similar backgrounds and doesn't always conform to state boundaries.

For example, the German nation is in parts of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Czech Republic, Denmark, etc, etc.

	09-06-2004 20:46									#97
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There is an American nation, but it's being destroyed by recent immigrants who refuse to renounce their ties to their old nations.

	09-06-2004 20:49									#98
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Islam CANNOT be claimed to be Fascist for the following reason.

Fascism (indeed most forms of autocracy) rely on compulsion of individuals to obey it's orders.

The whole POINT of Islam is that individuals VOLUNTARILY "surrender" to God.

Islam with compulsion to be a pious Muslim - isn't Islam.

	09-06-2004 20:49									#99
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imran, being of the german cultural group while living in Switzerland doesn't make nationality permanent. that same german national could go to america and renounce the german culture and be fully americanized. i'm not seeing the permanence of a social construct like nationality, especially not as compared to another social construct, religion. both can be easy to renounce and also quite difficult (and deadly) to renounce.

	09-06-2004 20:50									#100
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Cruddy:

this isn't about Islam being fascist. it's about islamism (Qutb's idealogy) being fascist or not.

	09-06-2004 21:15									#101
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Albert:

Putting "ism" at the end of words indicates that it is a belief system."

Islam is a belief system and so doesn't need it. Islamism isn't a word, Islamist isn't a word (try "Muslim") and those who say they are talking out of their back passages.

I realise that media people don't know this and endeavour to screw all our heads around into believing all Muslims are card carrying worshippers of Satan - but you don't have to follow someone when they throw themselves off a tall building.

As for Qutb' - never met the dude. Couldn't comment.

But if you meant "is forced Islam Fascistic?" then maybe any kind of forced belief system is autocratic (the dictator groups of govt).

Sorry if you feel mad at me for trying to correct you - but I thought it might help a bit.

	09-06-2004 21:19									#102
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quote: Islamism isn't a word

Yes, it is.

quote: Islamist isn't a word

Actually, yes, it is...

	09-06-2004 21:19									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Islam CANNOT be claimed to be Fascist for the following reason. Fascism (indeed most forms of autocracy) rely on compulsion of individuals to obey it's orders. The whole POINT of Islam is that individuals VOLUNTARILY "surrender" to God. Islam with compulsion to be a pious Muslim - isn't Islam.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...ol=968793972154


Ahem.

[edit]Should have read and comprehended before posting,still its an interesting article[/edit]

	09-06-2004 21:23									#104
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And Imram, yea assimilation of first generation immigrants is possible, it depends on them not wanting to cling to their old culture though(and not having people there to help them)

	09-06-2004 21:25									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Islamism isn't a word Yes, it is. quote: Islamist isn't a word Actually, yes, it is...

Both are labelled as "Amercanisms", which are defined as "the latest crap the White House want you to swallow".

They might be words to you - but they're only there to make you think the way certain people want you think.

Or not, as the case may be.

	09-06-2004 21:30									#106
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quote: Both are labelled as "Amercanisms", which are defined as "the latest crap the White House want you to swallow". They might be words to you - but they're only there to make you think the way certain people want you think. Or not, as the case may be.

Oh, for christ's sake...

The term "Islamism" and "Islamist" have been around a hell of a lot longer than the current Administration. Stop being an idiot.

	09-06-2004 21:30									#107
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quote: being of the german cultural group while living in Switzerland doesn't make nationality permanent. that same german national could go to america and renounce the german culture and be fully americanized.

A society of Germans living in Switzerland makes it a part of the German nation. A society of Germans in Russia, makes that part of the German nation. Nationality is more based on culture and ethnicity of societial groups rather than state boundaries. And the nation doesn't have to join together into one mass. Even if you emmigrate, you can still be a part of your homeland nation. In fact, one can refer to German neighborhoods in cities like Milwaukee to be part of the German nation.

Naziism is a very extreme version, saying that if you have any blood in you of a certain nation, then you are tainted and a part of that nation.

	09-06-2004 21:33									#108
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alright cruddy... so if we played your game how would we differentiate people like Bin Laden from your typical Sunni muslims?

islamism is beyond the religion... it is a political idealogy. this thread is about if this political idealogy known as islamism is fascist or not.

	09-06-2004 21:35									#109
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Imran, you're not making sense to me... i know nationality goes beyond the boundaries of a particular State... nationality is a cultural group. therefore, nationality can be changed at the discretion of the individual. i chose to partake in the german culture so i am of german nationality. i chose not to, then i am not of the german nationality.

	09-06-2004 21:35									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I've heard enough from you to realize that he's full of crap. Anyone that asserts nationalism isn't primary to Fascism isn't worth me reading.

Nationalism isn't primary to fascism. What is primary to fascism is rage against modern society. In the case of Germany and Italy, it was rage against the collapsing status of the middle classes in the face of capitalism on the one hand and the failure of the working class to bring about socialism (though I doubt they could have articulated it that way). What they felt was that everything was going wrong, that big business didn't care for the ordinary (i.e., the angry person) people and was robbing them blind, while the workers were out of control. Crime was up. Sexual morality was down. Kids talked back to parents. It just wasn't like the good old days anymore. Look at Speer. He's a classic facsist.

Hyper-nationalism is one way to express this rage, but by no means is it the only one. I can easily imagine a fascist movement in the United States based on right-wing, evangelical Christianity. Of course, here they have been able to advance their goals without resorting to fascism. We'll see what happens when they begin to lose power (hope hope).

Hitherto, I adhered to a strict Trotskyist understanding of Fascism, but LotM raises an excellent point about communism in non-industrial societies. I picked up the Berman book at the library, but I also received like ten books on the Ottoman Empire through ILL, so I need to read/skim those first before I can dive into Berman.

	09-06-2004 21:37									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui A society of Germans living in Switzerland makes it a part of the German nation.

In Russia, yes. German-speaking Swiss, however, consider themselves Swiss, and not Germans, and are insulted at being called Germans. Language is frequently linked with nationality, but it doesn't have to be.

	09-06-2004 21:39									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten There is an American nation, but it's being destroyed by recent immigrants who refuse to renounce their ties to their old nations.

Thank you for your input, Mr. 19th-Century. Now please go back to your own time.

	09-06-2004 21:43									#113
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quote: Hyper-nationalism is one way to express this rage, but by no means is it the only one.

I'd disagree. To the Fascist, hyper-nationalism is the way to express this rage. It is the primary way to do so (there can be more than one primary tenants to an ideology, especially when it is complicated and requires checks on the word so it doesn't fall into another definitons). In the nation, everyone is unified by the cultural and ethnic background. In religions you have too many people who are different. People who look different, come from different cultural backgrounds. That won't work. You need similar culture in order for a fascist state. In fact, the Fascists in Germany took over the churches and made them tools for the state, or else they would have been too divisive to the German nation.

	09-06-2004 21:46									#114
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Imran:

but religions are social/cultural constructs just as nationalities are. I'm not seeing any distinct difference between the two... both have certain moral laws, tabboos, traditions, means of setting up society and government, both have art, etc.

i think you're trying to equate religion with idealogy to prove its impermance as compared with nationality... but idealogy is lacking one thing which religion (and nationality) is stepped in... cultural tradition. political idealogy does not have a tradition of odd customs, tabboos, etc.

	09-06-2004 21:48									#115
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quote: religions are social/cultural constructs just as nationalities are. I'm not seeing any distinct difference between the two

Religions have generally much more far ranging cultures that come into it. Christianity, for instance, has Ethopians with their own culture, English win their own culture, etc, etc. Nationality usually has a distinct culture.

	09-06-2004 21:51									#116
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isms and icities suck

	09-06-2004 21:51									#117
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The Nazi did not take over the Churches, and in fact they were generally anti-Christian.

	09-06-2004 21:52									#118
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quote: Thank you for your input, Mr. 19th-Century. Now please go back to your own time.

That's pretty ironic, coming from an avowed communist...

	09-06-2004 21:52									#119
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Imran, but religions have dramatically changed/destroyed cultures. The various germanic cultures of the dark ages were drastically changed with their conversion to christianity... the ancient Persian culture, steeped in zoroastrianism, merged with the culture of the muslim arabs, disappearing as a distinct culture.

	09-06-2004 21:52									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer alright cruddy... so if we played your game how would we differentiate people like Bin Laden from your typical Sunni muslims?

Weollllll... here's an analogy first. How about Israelis and Jews? One group being much more dangerous than the other. Of course, some Israelis claim to be the "only" Jews just as some Israelis are atheist and by definition aren't following the Jewish tradition. In a technical sense they are all Jewish (being born of a Jewish mothers) but in a practical every day sense the different groups are very different.

Islam, being about 10 times bigger than Judaism, covering maybe 30 times as much area (I'm guessing conservatively here folks) are a damn sight harder to categorise. Not that anybody ever thinks about what sort of Jews the Israelis are. It's just accepted they are.

So, back to your question. I would catergorise OBL as a heretic. He advocates the killing of the innocent, intolerance to all religions except his own brand of Islam, and a solution to the world's problem that is at least very violent and at worst, plain old evil.

Musilms - S'hia, Sunni, don't matter - won't compromise over those 3 points. Violence for violence' sake is a big no no to Islam - self defence is allowed, but attacks on things like the WTC and the Madrid public transport system damn him to his religious margin.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer islamism is beyond the religion... it is a political idealogy. this thread is about if this political idealogy known as islamism is fascist or not.

Yes, but what you (and others, OK, I admit that) label as "Islamism" is too easily confused with "Islam". It's also not the easiest bunny in the wood to pronounce...

You guys KNOW the media play you the sound bites, give you the words, and expect you to blindly obey.

Why not work out the answers yourselves? I mean, all you've got is my word for it. Just turn off the TV and think for half an hour.