09-06-2004 23:07									#151
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social contract theory i suppose could be called a historical dialectic... that is, the state of nature of individual vs. the others who secures himself through the dialectic of the individual vs. the state. but yeah this is all picking at straws.

the only real choice for historical theory is cultural or class.

	09-06-2004 23:08									#152
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Do you understand social contract theory, Speer? How is it, in any way a historical dialectic?

	09-06-2004 23:13									#153
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like i said, i'm picking at straws for Gepap's sake... social contract theory does have the dialectic of the individual and the state though. it is conceivable to extend this into explaning historical events which Rouseau, et al actually did in discussing transitions from the primitive state to monarchy to democracy

	09-06-2004 23:17									#154
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Imran:

well there was also the Albigensens of southern france which were considered heretical... or how about the Great Schism which saw France with a different pope than the pope in rome?

but can we agree on the fact that Protestantism's success (and the existance of heretical movements earlier) was due to the dissolved HRE and the weak power of the Emperor? if so, why did this situation exist? I contend individuals going back to Charlemagne organized the Empire such (what with feudalism, Salic law, and what not) that the Empire would continually degenerate. the recipe for feudalism and what not was due to attempts to efficiently run the Empire through delegation in a time when communications across the empire were impossible. this is not a cultural cause.

Last edited by Albert Speer on 09-06-2004 at 23:32

	09-06-2004 23:21									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer like i said, i'm picking at straws for Gepap's sake... social contract theory does have the dialectic of the individual and the state though. it is conceivable to extend this into explaning historical events which Rouseau, et al actually did in discussing transitions from the primitive state to monarchy to democracy

Don't do it for my sake.

You answered your own question.

	09-06-2004 23:26									#156
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Gepap:

i answered my question? then i'll respond to my own answer... the problem with this liberal dialect is that it places the State into a divine area; that is, something seperate and unique from the individual when, in fact, the individual voluntarily agrees to the doctrine of the State and, in republics, may actively participate as a part of the State and determine its course. this dialectic would be one where one of the opposing sides is of the other side... a paradoxical situation for explaining historical events especailly when dealing with democracies and the politics within a democracy and between democracies.

	09-06-2004 23:37									#157
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quote: Originally posted by GePap My take on fascism: Fascismis a modern political ideology. Important factors that make it fascism as opposed to other theories: 1. Mass POlitics- Fascism seeks to engage the masses in a grand movement 2. National Identity as core of consciousness. What I mean by that is that the fascism sees Mans most important identity being formed by culture, not economics (socialism)-and the most important grouping of men then is the nation, which is built out of that shared cultural identity.

Substitute organic group identity for National identity - that helps you with Nazism where the relationship between conventionally defined national identity and Aryan racial identity is ambiguous - and Francoism, where relationship between Spanish/castillian national identity and Opus Dei Catholic identity is ambiguous - and it brings in the evolution of the movement in non-western cultural arenas where states are not nation states, and where there is a cultural inclination to subordinate the nation to a larger religious entity - IE the Ummah - and youve got Salafism.

More parallels - Nazism - derides actual recent German history in favor of quasi-mythical pagan past Salafism - derides recent Muslim history in favor of restoration of "pure" 7th century vision of Islam, stripped of later admixtures, interpretations, and compromises.

	09-06-2004 23:43									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Gepap: i answered my question? then i'll respond to my own answer... the problem with this liberal dialect is that it places the State into a divine area; that is, something seperate and unique from the individual when, in fact, the individual voluntarily agrees to the doctrine of the State and, in republics, may actively participate as a part of the State and determine its course. this dialectic would be one where one of the opposing sides is of the other side... a paradoxical situation for explaining historical events especailly when dealing with democracies and the politics within a democracy and between democracies.

I don;t see how the State is place din anything coming close to a divine sphere. Separate and distinct from the public, certainly (hence the notion of the private into which the public has no reach), but the State comes INTO existance with the deal it envisions. The deal is not made with the state, -the deal makes the state. In that regard it certainly accepts the participation of people. If anything, this annalysis imagines way too much participation into the creation of the state by indiviuals.

	09-06-2004 23:45									#159
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Substitute organic group identity for National identity - that helps you with Nazism where the relationship between conventionally defined national identity and Aryan racial identity is ambiguous - and Francoism, where relationship between Spanish/castillian national identity and Opus Dei Catholic identity is ambiguous - and it brings in the evolution of the movement in non-western cultural arenas where states are not nation states, and where there is a cultural inclination to subordinate the nation to a larger religious entity - IE the Ummah - and youve got Salafism. More parallels - Nazism - derides actual recent German history in favor of quasi-mythical pagan past Salafism - derides recent Muslim history in favor of restoration of "pure" 7th century vision of Islam, stripped of later admixtures, interpretations, and compromises.

But you left out the third, which is crucial to fascism. I have always questionned the extent to which Franco was a real fascist-I htink he got rid of most of them by shipping them out to the Eastern Front.

	09-06-2004 23:49									#160
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OK. Someone tells me why I should care whether Islamism is Fascism or not?

	09-06-2004 23:53									#161
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It's all about sticking it under a term that Westerners generally agree = BAD.

Square peg, round hole? No problem, just gimme a jigsaw or a really big hammer and I'll fix it!

-Arrian

	09-06-2004 23:53									#162
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LC: Think you've got us by the balls on that on

	09-06-2004 23:59									#163
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arrian, it is an absured question which assumes things that can not be assumed hence how this whole debate has degenerated into defining fascism, defining islamism, and comparing nationality with religion

and the thread starter hasn't said anything in several pages. i think he's scared

	10-06-2004 00:00									#164
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Duh.

	10-06-2004 00:00									#165
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quote: Originally posted by GePap My take on fascism: 3. Confused about the future: Fascists are inherently reactionary in that they invoke the common cultural heritage they see as having being the basis of the nation and use it as the reality that gives them legitimacy. It makes sense then to trying to make it stronger-at the same time, they are radicals, as they seek to remake the state and build mass politics, which is general will either conflict with the less popular (as in more exclusive) politics of the day, or destroy the existing parlimentary system in power.

I see this as being highly charecteristic of the Salafist position - it comes out most strongly in their relationship with Saudi Arabia. In other states, which are not islamist, or at least not Wahabist, things are easier for them, as they see those states by their very nature as violations of the supremacy and unity of the Ummah. Arguably this is a universal for a "nationalist" fascism in that they are tied to a particular nation and its particular political history - thus Italian fascists had to deal with the liberal heritage of the only modern unified Italian state. Im not sure that this constraint is intrinsic to fascism, or just to fascism in that particular circumstance - certainly Austrian Nazis, for example had no trouble repudiating the Austrian state. Nor did Dutch or Norwegian fascists show any loyalty to local political traditions.

	10-06-2004 00:02									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist OK. Someone tells me why I should care whether Islamism is Fascism or not?

bermans main point was to raise concern among liberals, and show that the war against Islamist terror (not necessarily all islamism, as i point out earlier) is a natural cause for liberalism. He was spefically countering some voices on the left who claimed that AQ was a legitimate liberation movement, and an objectively progressive force. Chomsky in particular.

	10-06-2004 00:04									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's all about sticking it under a term that Westerners generally agree = BAD. Square peg, round hole? No problem, just gimme a jigsaw or a really big hammer and I'll fix it! -Arrian

so have you read Bermans book?

	10-06-2004 00:04									#168
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quote: countering some voices on the left who claimed that AQ was a legitimate liberation movement,

wow... there's people who believe this?

	10-06-2004 00:10									#169
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I see this as being highly charecteristic of the Salafist position - it comes out most strongly in their relationship with Saudi Arabia. In other states, which are not islamist, or at least not Wahabist, things are easier for them, as they see those states by their very nature as violations of the supremacy and unity of the Ummah. Arguably this is a universal for a "nationalist" fascism in that they are tied to a particular nation and its particular political history - thus Italian fascists had to deal with the liberal heritage of the only modern unified Italian state. Im not sure that this constraint is intrinsic to fascism, or just to fascism in that particular circumstance - certainly Austrian Nazis, for example had no trouble repudiating the Austrian state. Nor did Dutch or Norwegian fascists show any loyalty to local political traditions.

Repudiating local politics is not the issue- it is one of instituting modernizing ideas in the name of reactionary ideals. Fascism like Communism puts loyalty to the State first- and undermines the family and erases the private. Do Salafist want to institute massive new government bureaucracies and institute loyalty to the State as primary.

	10-06-2004 00:12									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist God, being the inconsiderate bastard He is, did not provide us with a list of definitive and universal definitions of political terms. Therefore our definitions are arbitrary, and only work as long as both sides of a discussion use the same ones. Yours, and, I gather, Berman's, is, then, no more inherently wrong than any other. I however consider it to be bad from a practical PoV, since it agrees neither with what the average joe on the street understands under the term, nor with what the people who developed an ideology they called Fascism considered it to be. If we were more interested in furthering understanding than in lengthy discussions that do not lead anywhere in particular, we'd drop the question whether Islamism should be labeled 'Fascism', and instead speak of its practical importance and relevance, and perhaps to of its merits (or lack thereof) as an ideological system. Comparisons with European '30s Fascism may or not be considered relevant or enlightening, but do no hinge on whether we unify both under a label of "Fascism".

I would suggest that Berman goes on to practical implications of his point of view.

The largest one, clearly, is that if "jihadism" is largely a western cultural import, and not a natural outgrowth of Islam, then we should not see the WOT as a war on Islam, and we should approach traditional Islam differently than we otherwise might. We should focus the war of ideas not against Islam, but against the fascist ideas that came from the west. In particular we should clarify to muslim peoples the extent to which jihadi ideas are based on western imports, and so undercut their claims to authenticity.

I would agree its not that important how we define fascism, and whether jihadism is considered a form of fascism or not. Whats important is to understand that several of the key aspects of jihadism are derivative from western fascism, EVEN if we choose to include criteria in our definition of fascism which jihadism does not include. IIRC Berman spends more time on the tracing of these ideas, than on the question of definition. Its important to him, but theres plenty of other important points in the book.

	10-06-2004 00:13									#171
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so have you read Bermans book?

I was talking about the thread, and the thread starter, not just your contributions (which have a helluva lot more worth than the original post). No, I have not read the book. Sounds vaguely interesting, but not interesting enough for me to go out and get it. Reason being I figured the motive for the writing before you stated it (to convince the left that Islamists are anti-liberalism and must be fought).

-Arrian

	10-06-2004 00:18									#172
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark bermans main point was to raise concern among liberals, and show that the war against Islamist terror (not necessarily all islamism, as i point out earlier) is a natural cause for liberalism.

This does not exactly weaken the plausibility of the charge he's labeling it Fascism to benefit from kneejerk aversion to that.

quote: He was spefically countering some voices on the left who claimed that AQ was a legitimate liberation movement, and an objectively progressive force. Chomsky in particular.

A noble goal, I guess. And optimistic - I would tend to write of such people as lost.

Chomsky claims that? He's more whacko than I thought ...


(And I'll never get used to this Liberal=Leftist idea. I voted for the Liberals today, which, of course, means I voted for the right.)

	10-06-2004 00:18									#173
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Repudiating local politics is not the issue- it is one of instituting modernizing ideas in the name of reactionary ideals. Fascism like Communism puts loyalty to the State first- and undermines the family and erases the private. Do Salafist want to institute massive new government bureaucracies and institute loyalty to the State as primary.

In principle, Nazism differed from Italian fascism in this respect - loyalty to the RACE was principle and the state existed to serve the historical goals of the race. IIUC AQ sees the Caliphate as the proper political form, and sees that caliphate as inseperable from Islam. Loyalty to Islam is first, but will in theory be inseperable from loyalty to the Ummah. They did NOT declare a Caliphate in Afghanistan, for their own ideological reasons i presume. AFAICT they certainly expected supreme loyalty to the Taliban state on the part of Afghans, within THE LIMITS of local social conditions, which in turn were conditioned by local (pashtun) culture. Very parallel to the experience of Leninists in places like Africa, where objective local conditions limit the implementation of the full ideological plan.

	10-06-2004 00:20									#174
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quote: how about the Great Schism which saw France with a different pope than the pope in rome?

How was this a result of heresy? The pope moved to France and the next Pope died early and hence there were different interpretations over who the next Pope should be and where. And don't forget the third Pope in Padua. It was more a comedy of errors than Heresy.

quote: can we agree on the fact that Protestantism's success (and the existance of heretical movements earlier) was due to the dissolved HRE and the weak power of the Emperor?

Any revolt needs a weakened leader to succeed. That isn't the point. The point is these areas went for a much more individualistic religion when they had the chance, due to cultural beliefs. The exception was England.

quote: Substitute organic group identity for National identity

Then it isn't Fascism. You may come close, but you won't actually reach it.

	10-06-2004 00:21									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist This does not exactly weaken the plausibility of the charge he's labeling it Fascism to benefit from kneejerk aversion to that.

I would suggest that most of the kind of people who would read a book as difficult as this are not the sort to react in knee jerk fashion.

	10-06-2004 00:23									#176
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quote: lord of the mark] The largest one, clearly, is that if "jihadism" is largely a western cultural import, and not a natural outgrowth of Islam, then we should not see the WOT as a war on Islam, and we should approach traditional Islam differently than we otherwise might. We should focus the war of ideas not against Islam, but against the fascist ideas that came from the west. In particular we should clarify to muslim peoples the extent to which jihadi ideas are based on western imports, and so undercut their claims to authenticity.

Then I to a large extent agree with him here.

(I still suspect him of dishonest rhetorics on the Fascism issue, tho.)

	10-06-2004 00:25									#177
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And, of course, in the end, there is a question of the one leader to whom everyone looks to. A council of Ayatollah's won't work. Has to be someone Khomeni like.

	10-06-2004 00:27									#178
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I would suggest that most of the kind of people who would read a book as difficult as this are not the sort to react in knee jerk fashion.

Possible. (Not having read the book, I can't judge it's difficulty, nor do I have the psychological expertise to tell to what extent immunity to such kneejerking correlates with a propensity for reading difficult books.)

He can't be unaware, tho, that his basic assertation that Islamism=Fascism would be heard by quite a few people who would never read the book (some of them, apparently, unable to distinguish between Islam and Islamism).

	10-06-2004 00:30									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Substitute organic group identity for National identity Then it isn't Fascism. You may come close, but you won't actually reach it.

Ok, its banana. Banana is term for the ideology that swept over large parts of europe between the world wars. banana is charecterized by all the criteria which charecterize fascism, EXCEPT that the loyalty is to an organic entity, a religion or race, and not necessarily a nation. Fascism is therefore one variety of banana - all others are called Banana peel.

Italy was taken over by fascism. Germany was taken over by a form of banana that many consider to be facsism, though some would say it has large elements of banana peel. Spain was taken over by a form of banana that was largely banana peel, though it subsumed some genuine fascists. One form of banana that took root in the muslim world was fascist - though it was mainly of appeal to army officers and minority intellectuals. The form that took deeper root was banana peel. One can also see elements of banana peel on the Israeli and Indian far right, though the one to one match of religion and state make those bananas look more fascist.

Clealy the jihadi banana peel, despite its claims to muslim authenticity, and its differences from western fascism, is deeply rooted in western banana. This should make it clear to liberals that jihadism is their enemy, and it should impact the way we view the struggle.

Happy now?

	10-06-2004 00:34									#180
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Not really . Fascism isn't a subset of anything other than totalitarianism. At most the statement can be made that these groups take from Fascism and have aspects like Fascism. They cannot be said to be fascism, though.