10-06-2004 05:53									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And sure, you can watch for machines that are "due"...

I KNEW i was right!!

(just kiddin' KH )

	10-06-2004 05:54									#32
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While the last may be untrue, the logic of the first is... keep the money you won, don't give it back. I wasn't making a comment on whether the machine would stay hot or not... just to keep the money. Be a winner

	10-06-2004 05:56									#33
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Most likely a loser. I can't abide the thought of throwing my money away to a machine that doesn't care if I'm Albert Einstein or a complete imbecile.

	10-06-2004 05:58									#34
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I would have to agree with Slowwhand. I don't know about the rest of them machines but at least in here, you play poker machine or just regular slots, the best ones are when many people played and didn't win.. at some point they start pouring the money out too some so that's when you want to be playing.

In cruise ships, the staff always goes to play the machines after all the travellers have gone to the land, spent all their money in machines, and then it's *CHING CHING*. I've seen it happening before my own eyes and was even succesfull in it myself few times in cruise ships. Not big money but I was able to take out 600fim with only 50fim.. 600fim being 100 dollars. Big money to young lad I was then.

Because they only give you (the poker machines) like two pairs, three of a kind at the best, or just nothing at all. If this continues for a long time, you want that machine to yourself. Soon it starts giving those bigger winnings like four of a kind and full house etc. The trick is to know when it stops being such a slot and starts giving some. BUt when it starts, it goes on for a good time.

	10-06-2004 05:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ming While the last may be untrue, the logic of the first is... keep the money you won, don't give it back. I wasn't making a comment on whether the machine would stay hot or not...

.....like I say, just kiddin'

	10-06-2004 06:03									#36
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Are we going to get into to 'Spearman .vs. Tank' debate?

You know Pi+Pn and all that! :O)

	10-06-2004 06:04									#37
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If you're trying to earn money, why would you play slots?

	10-06-2004 08:48									#38
	Got spare money?

If you want to gamble, forex is the way to go.

Really exciting, I tell you.

	10-06-2004 09:01									#39
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or the machines that changes your bills into coins.. win every time!

	10-06-2004 09:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich If you're trying to earn money, why would you play slots?

What? Do you expect PA to get a real job? That would require actually doing some work. Besides, writing applications takes too much time away from playing the slots.

	10-06-2004 10:50									#41
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well I work on slot machines (well I used to).

While I have seen a couple with over 100% payouts, that was a long time ago.

No machine is set above 98% payout.

You can't win. period.

Your only shot is to put a few bucks in, hit a royal flush or 4 aces and then walk away and never gamble again .

	10-06-2004 11:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Well Bods, I can tell you that a couple of "real" (ie successful) programmer friends of mine will never play the things - after working for a company that serviced them. You see, before you've put the money in, they've decided if there's a chance of paying out or not. In the UK, the govt sets the minimum payout of 70% of what you put in. Of course, that doesn't mean even over a whole lifetime you'll get back exactly 70% of what you put in... ...But every time you put money in, that's the proportion of cash you can expect to get back. The odds can be skewed if the operator has "stoked" the machine not to pay out at 70%, or the other way if it's malfunctioning or has recently been compromised by a professional gambler... ... A gambling compulsion can cost your money, your self respect, and your life. Set limits, BE ABLE TO WALK AWAY - and you;ll probably be OK. Personally, I only play them when;- a) I NEED money (typically to get public transport home). b) I have SOME money but not enough. c) If I crap out and lose the lot, it's walkable.

In Las Vegas the minimum payout is 94%

	10-06-2004 11:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm pretty sure this "strategy" is bollocks. The machines don't pay out a bunch after they've been paying out nothing; each pull of the lever is guaranteed (by the laws in the jurisdictions I'm familiar with) to be completely independent of the last. In other words it's like thinking that you're making a good bet on flipping tails because you've just flipped ten heads in a row. Probability doesn't work that way.

you are correct sir.

I have seen Royal Flushes within 5 minutes of each other on the same machine. Theoretically you could get a royal flush 2 hands in a row. Each hand has a certain percentage of getting a royal.

	10-06-2004 11:25									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I don't know how it is over there... but some basic rules for playing slots in the US. The larger the coin you have to put in, the higher the machine is set to pay out. Always play the maximum number of coins per pull the machine will take. In most casinos, they set the machines near the aisles to pay off higher than the machines buried deep in the rows... they want people to see people winning. When you win a big pay off, walk away from the machine. And sure, you can watch for machines that are "due"...

As I said in my previous posts. The machiens aren't supposed to be "hot" or "cold". There is a chance for a royal every single hand.

But. And this is a big but. I have seen "hot" machines. Even though they aren't supposed to exist. Like I said, I have been working on slot machines for the past 4 and 1/2 years. But I admit I don't program the chips. The slot manufactures do the actual programming.

But I have seen machines constantly hit jackpots over a period of a couple or a few hours. I have seen these same machines not hit any major jackpots as well. Sure you will hit full houses and such, but nothing major. I can't explain why this is. But I don't manufacture the chips.

But we can set up the "percentage" Each game has a certain percentage you can choose from. There are numbers like 95.2%, 96.4%, 97.2%, 98.1% etc for each game such as Bonus Poker, Double bonus Poker etc.

When we set the machines up, we can select one of the percentages for each game.

	10-06-2004 11:35									#45
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All my above posts are referencing video poker. By far the most popular slot machine. Although technically they aren't a slot machine, everbody calls them slot machines. The reel type slot machines we call S-slots.

But most people in Las Vegas play video poker. A very popular game. There are many different variations. bonus poker, double bonus poker, double double bonus poker. triple bonus poker, deuces wild, joker poker, aces poker, bonus poker delux, triple play poker, five play poker, 10 play poker, 50 play poker, 100 play poker, or just flex play (these are new machines which offer a combination of the above).

Most new machines are multi-denomination. You can choose from various denominations. Typically 5c, 25c, 50c, $1, $2, $5, and even $25. If you bet 5 that is $125 a hand. A royal flush pays $100,000. And yes our company has payed out $100,000. Myself, the largest jackpot I have payed is $20,000. You'd be surprised how often we don't get tips for that . The guy who hit over $100,000 on Stud Poker didn't even tip.

10 play and 50 play machines may also have denominations like 1c, 2c, 10 c etc.

The casinos still have many reel type s-slots. But also Williams and Bally manufacture new "reel" type machines that use computer moniters. They don't have a mechanical reel. These are themed games such as Addams family, Honeymooners, lots of old tv shows. Even Playboy. We also have Wheel of Fortunes slots- these are manufactured by IGT. Probably the largest manufacturer in the world. Based out of Reno, NV. IMHO they are the best games to work on.

	10-06-2004 12:07									#46
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We got a pro here

	10-06-2004 12:10									#47
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and yet. I gamble every now and then.

One reason I'm not a major gambler despite living in Las Vegas is I hate losing money . I'm cheap.

But I do game megabucks every now and then. We don't have a lottery. this is my best be to win several million dollars . But I never put in more than $20. And I only do that once every 6 months or so. Sometimes even less than that.

I used to play blackjack. But the best I can do ther is break even. But it's still a fun game. It has more interaction than staring at a video screen.

The funny thing is I make fun of people who spend hours and hours staring at slot/video poker machines. Yet I go home and play computer games for hours on end

But I lose less money playing computer games. And they are more interactive and require more brain power.

	10-06-2004 12:17									#48
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If you play slot machines, poker etc. for entertainment, it's okay. As long as you are not addicted or think you can make money from gambling.

Did you just say you made $20,000 once?

	10-06-2004 12:22									#49
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He said he paid it out to someone else. From the sounds of it he works in a casino or something. Not a lot else to do in Vegas I guess, unless you're a hooker or a guy with his own Bengal tiger.

	10-06-2004 12:53									#50
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Nothing to stop machines being set to 98% or greater in order to reel in the customers... Stew will remember Nudge Banker in the Trafford Centre which could almost always be guaranteed a (small) win, and I've noticed that newly-arrived machines tend to get progressively less "hot" as they age...

	10-06-2004 13:19									#51
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New machines are always good ones to play. Whether it's because they are set higher to begin with in order to entice customers, or whether a few novices try a few quid and inevitably lose because they don't know the machine yet, I don't know.

Slot machine playing isn't so much skill as experience. Firstly you can build up experience of a particular slot, and then next you build up experience of slots in general play.

American slots might play different to British slots, I don't know. But I can guarantee you that if you did an experiment with two pots of money, such as..

Pot A, £100: pump the machine with £10 and don't take any wins

Pot B, £100: takes over the machine after that £10 pumping from Pot A and gets what it can.

I can assure you Pot B will return with a good profit.

Of course the trick is to make other punters your "Pot A" and watch them fill the machine for you, so that the machine needs to pay something out in order to return to its payout average percentage.

	10-06-2004 13:37									#52
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Did you even read what Dissident wrote.

	10-06-2004 13:43									#53
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Yeah and what he said obviously doesn't apply to British machines.

These do hit hot and cold streaks. And no the customer if you take him as the group of all those who play on slot machines can not win. However, individual customers within the slot machine playing group can win.

	10-06-2004 14:42									#54
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I also play British machines sometimes (I never put more than a few quid in at once though), and PA is absolutely correct, there are "hot" and "cold" streaks. There have been times when I have done things ridiculously stupid and ended up losing my win, and then one or two goes later I get another one.

In the airport on my way to Germany, my score was about...
£3 in > £2 out
then I went on some crappy pusher slot machines and got about 30p back from a pound, went back on the first machine...
£1.40 > £6

I was happy with that. Although it could have been £10 if the lights had been working properly, as I was allowed to "choose" a win from five attempts and I though I was no the £5 win when I said collect but it was really only £1. Oops.

	10-06-2004 17:44									#55
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The law of averages indicate that things will run hot and cold. And that there will indeed be "streaks". But, these are random in nature... And yes, you will win if you are "lucky" enough to be playing a machine when it eventually pays out.

However,

quote: Pot A, £100: pump the machine with £10 and don't take any wins Pot B, £100: takes over the machine after that £10 pumping from Pot A and gets what it can. I can assure you Pot B will return with a good profit.

You can assure no such thing. Sometimes it will work, and sometimes it won't... it's a matter of luck. As stated, everytime you "pull the handle" the odds of any given event occuring are the same.

	10-06-2004 17:50									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident No machine is set above 98% payout. You can't win. period.

Unless... you're the person that owns and operates the machine?

	10-06-2004 18:11									#57
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I have seen slot machines beaten.

Once.

When I was a student. The machine in the pub began to misfunction and paid out every time. Dishonestly we all exploited this until - eventually - it got noticed and fixed.

Which illustrates a point. Waiting until a machine is "due" is a losing game. There are two possibilities - either the machine is set up properly in which case the chance of a pay-out is just exactly the same on each and every pull of the lever - wholly uninfluenced by the pulls that went before. Or the machine is misfunctioning and, in this case, not paying out enough.

If you see a machine pay out three times in a row - don't decide it is now not "due" for a while. Maybe your chance on the next pull is just exactly the same (bad) chance as you get when it is functioning properly but maybe, like the one in the pub, it is misfunctioning favourably to you.

Coming at the same point in a different way - the big win on the machine in my bridge club builds up steadily as it is played. Until someone wins. Now it might seem that the time to play the machine is when the jackpot has not been won for a while and has built up to a goodly figure.

But consider that with a gamesplayer's eye. This is the very thing the person who designed the machine and who operates it is relying upon. The feature is exploiting human nature and greed. But of course the motive of those people is to make money which means to maximise the money making its way through the machine and thereby the slice skimmed off the top on the way through. So if you see a machine with a nice big jackpot you know that it is programmed to pay out the jackpot win rarely enough to ensure that the jackpot figure displayed is mostly high and only rarely so low as to deter players.

If there is another machine with a more modest jackpot it is true that the prospect for a really big win is lost - but, on the available evidence, a gamesplayer may nevertheless conclude that the raw percentages are more likely to be less (ludicrously) unfavourable on that machine.

One last point. Some figures are bandied about in the thread for the percentage cut to the house.

When you see such figures there is a feature to be allowed for. It is time. So, for example, roulette is a fastish game. A lot quicker than poker. The percentage favouring the house therefor gets applied in roulette many more times over the same period as in the case of poker.

Craps is said to be faster but slot machines are the faster of all. Even a very small edge, in percentage terms, gets to have the best chance to work itself out to the maximum benefit of the house in such a case.

I find the machines insulting - with their flashing lights and rapid, deeply trivial, decision making. And would not play them for that reason alone. But if you have anything of the gambler about you the other reason not to play is that to do so makes you a sucker.

	10-06-2004 20:17									#58
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"As stated, everytime you "pull the handle" the odds of any given event occuring are the same."

You're wrong again. This isn't a random roulette wheel. It's got programming and it's got average payouts to meet by law.

Which means that if its taken £50 without paying a thing, it's pretty damn likely to drop pretty soon (ie odds of it paying now are a lot higher).

I don't see why you fail to understand this Ming.

Maybe it is a subtle difference between American and British machines, I don't know.

But I've played hundreds of different slots and know they play better once they've absorbed a bit of money off someone else.

	10-06-2004 20:18									#59
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Mybe it's because the jackpots are lower here on our pub slot machines (recently gone from £15 to £25), and that they only hold at maximum £100 in pound coins.

I get the impression you're thinking of the huge payout machines, like $10,000 jackpot or something...

	10-06-2004 20:41									#60
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You are misunderstanding the legal requirement. There is no rule that requires any specific payout over a specified timescale. As long as the machine is set to pay out at least 70% of the money it takes in it is lawful.

If some particular machine - honestly set up - failed to pay out a single penny for a decade that would no doubt be a minor statistical freak but it would not give rise to a prosecution.