10-06-2004 20:42									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue You're wrong again. This isn't a random roulette wheel. It's got programming and it's got average payouts to meet by law. Which means that if its taken £50 without paying a thing, it's pretty damn likely to drop pretty soon (ie odds of it paying now are a lot higher).

Thats what i was TRYING to say last night, unfortuneatly the Carling got in between my brain and the keyboard!

	10-06-2004 20:43									#62
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I think people would have stopped playing it long before the time was up, and thus the manufacturers stop making any money from it anyway. You're all quite cynical! If you know what you are doing, it is possible to make gains on most machines.

	10-06-2004 20:58									#63
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Stick to the slots then, PA.

I'd suggest not taking up poker.

	10-06-2004 20:59									#64
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Anything that makes him stay at home and not terrorize inoccent Pakistani immigrants is cool.

	10-06-2004 21:00									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I don't see why you fail to understand this Ming.

I don't see why you don't understand

You seem to have the impression that there is a counter in the machine, and that if it doesn't pay off by a specific number of pulls, that it automatically gives a big pay off.

This is not how it works. The electronic machines can be programmed to pay off at "such and such" a rate. It's based on probablity... and every time you pull the handle, the odds are exactly the same.

Granted, a machine can appear to be hot or cold. That's how probablity works... it's not a straight line thing, but a matter of peaks and valleys. But just because somebody has pumped some money into a machine before doesn't mean it's ready to pay you

	10-06-2004 21:00									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Yeah and what he said obviously doesn't apply to British machines. These do hit hot and cold streaks. And no the customer if you take him as the group of all those who play on slot machines can not win. However, individual customers within the slot machine playing group can win.

You're just plain wrong. It's simple statistics. You're trying to introduce anecdotal evidence - you think this for the same reason people for some reason think tanks are particularly vulnerable to spearmen

	10-06-2004 21:11									#67
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"That's how probablity works... it's not a straight line thing, but a matter of peaks and valleys. But just because somebody has pumped some money into a machine before doesn't mean it's ready to pay you "

I know that's how random probability works.

Mine (and plenty other Brits') argument on this thread is that for slot machines, each spin isn't entirely independent from the last one and a hundred.

	10-06-2004 21:13									#68
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Only in the sense that a pseudorandom number generator gets the next number based on the previous seed.

	10-06-2004 21:18									#69
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When either you or Ming have ploughed significant amounts of money into these machines your opinion will hold some weight. But until then they're about as relevent as my contribution to Suoimithreads. Please at least read the link posted by reds4ever before you keep talking. In the US, do fruit machines have boards, extensive features and hard-wired codes that you can manipulate, like our most popular machines?

"You seem to have the impression that there is a counter in the machine, and that if it doesn't pay off by a specific number of pulls, that it automatically gives a big pay off."

This is NOT what we are saying. The machines are programmed to work in a specific way, and may at some point decide they can afford to pay out a certain amount of money, and so will try and steer the player to winnign that amount; but this doesn't mean you're going to get three jackpot signs come up out of nowhere, more like you'll get a small win which you can gamble up to whatever levels the machine can afford to pay out.

	10-06-2004 21:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie When either you or Ming have ploughed significant amounts of money into these machines your opinion will hold some weight.

I have ploughed significant amounts of money into slot machines...

The basic rules I stated in my first post are based on my observations, and talking to people who work in casinos and know the subject better than I. And I stand by them.

	10-06-2004 21:37									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Well Bods, I can tell you that a couple of "real" (ie successful) programmer friends of mine will never play the things - after working for a company that serviced them.

It's better if you program them, then you can put little back-doors in for yourself.

	10-06-2004 21:38									#72
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THESE machines. The oens we're talking about. From England. For example, do you know what a "cash belt" is?

	10-06-2004 21:39									#73
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I have played them extensively too.

All I can hypothesise is that there are differences between the slots we play in pubs here and the ones they can have a go at.

	10-06-2004 21:42									#74
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I was waiting for someone to go to the toilet before we went home on a wednesday night a few weeks ago someone I was with put a couple of quid in a machine and won nothing. I thought sod it and had a go too. Won £35.

2 weeks later same night, same machine, same person went to the toilet, same person had a go first... I thought, what the hell... £2 in same feature win £52

*shrug*

	10-06-2004 21:43									#75
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"From England. For example, do you know what a "cash belt" is?"

It's a money belt. Or crossfire..

	10-06-2004 21:51									#76
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Edit: uhh yes, money belt, not cash belt. Ignore what this post previously said.

	10-06-2004 21:51									#77
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There being as many slot machines as there are I would be willing to believe that some very small number of people who play a bit are net ahead over a lifetime. The number who are in net profit among people who play a lot will be tinier still but no doubt there are a couple.

The number of people who believe they are ahead of the game I would suspect to be a whole lot more. Because each losing bet is, by itself, so very insignificant. It will not be remembered. While a decent sized win will stay in the meory for a little while. And a false impression will be created.

If you are a gambler - that is you play at stakes sufficient for winning or losing significantly to affect you - you know that memory is unreliable about such matters and you keep a record of your results.

But I don't imagine someone who just puts a few coins into slot machines would do that.

	10-06-2004 21:55									#78
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"The number of people who believe they are ahead of the game I would suspect to be a whole lot more. Because each losing bet is, by itself, so very insignificant. It will not be remembered. While a decent sized win will stay in the meory for a little while. And a false impression will be created."

I think you're absolutely right. I've never met anyone who has admitted playing fruit machines a lot but actually losing money. I think a lot of it is about saving face.

	10-06-2004 22:03									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The basic rules I stated in my first post are based on my observations, and talking to people who work in casinos and know the subject better than I.

We have Dissident here.

	10-06-2004 22:30									#80
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This thread isn't about slot machines in casinos.

	10-06-2004 23:38									#81
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Slot machines are slot machines... while they may be set up differently based on locations, they are still slot machines

	10-06-2004 23:41									#82
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Personally, I don't understand why people would waste money on slot machines or things like video poker. Those are machines where your chances of winning are manipulated and not ruled solely by chance. I am not anti-gambling.... it's your money, do what you wish. But if you are going to gamble, at least be smart and play games where you have a good chance of winning.

	10-06-2004 23:57									#83
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That's what good slot machine players do by seeking out and playing the machines that seem to have higher payout rates (ie, in Wetherspoons, or where novices play them).

	11-06-2004 00:13									#84
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Same reason why you play SWPs in scally pubs...

	11-06-2004 07:08									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I think people would have stopped playing it long before the time was up, and thus the manufacturers stop making any money from it anyway. You're all quite cynical! If you know what you are doing, it is possible to make gains on most machines.

Nah, there are always suckers who think they can beat the system. They remember their wins, they forget their losses. And in the end they keep people like Dissident employed.

I like playing slots for fun, but anyone who thinks they can beat a system that is mathematically designed is a fool whose money is soon parted.

	11-06-2004 11:01									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger We have Dissident here.

yes, and I agree with Ming for the most part.

he knows what he's talking about.

Yes machines appear to be hot and cold. But theoretically you can hit a royal flush when the machine is cold. It's just random when a machine goes hot and cold. There's nothing that says a machine will stay cold for a certain amount of time and then start hitting.

For example: you could watch someone lost hundreds of dollars (or pounds) who then gets up an leaves. You can sit down, but that doesn't mean the machine will suddenly go hot any time soon.

	11-06-2004 11:02									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue This thread isn't about slot machines in casinos.

where are the slot machines? in someone's house?

	11-06-2004 11:02									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue That's what good slot machine players do by seeking out and playing the machines that seem to have higher payout rates (ie, in Wetherspoons, or where novices play them).

good slot machine players are crap.

Learn to play craps. you can make money at that game.

	11-06-2004 11:34									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident where are the slot machines? in someone's house?

In pubs and bars. Usually only 1-3 machines per establishment.

	11-06-2004 13:01									#90
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There's just a blatant ignorance from the Americans about the kind of slot machines we are on about, I think. They still haven't told us if they what a Moneybelt is, or Fastcash..or Sevenstepper.