09-06-2004 20:31									#1
	Slot Machines Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Anyone play these things? Any hints and tips?

I just been to my local because I was bored, got a diet coke and started on the slots...

Beaver Las Vegas - £8 in, £15 out, then £2 in, £6 out

Some random one - £2 in, £4

Gridlock - £2 in, £5 out

Nice tidy little £15 profit for a wquarter of an hour's work and fun. I know it's not always that easy though.

I think the best way to win is to be sneaky and watch machines. But then it becomes like a job, and you get spotted by the barstaff...got a mate who turfed out of Wetherspoons in Aberystwyth once for sitting with one drink for six hours, watching the slots in order to win.

	09-06-2004 20:32									#2
	Re: Slot Machines Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Any hints and tips?

Bring lots of money with you.

And don't expect to leave with any.

	09-06-2004 20:34									#3
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You're on the right track. Watch for someone playing a long time without winning; or a machine in general that hasn't paid out, no matter how many people played.

	09-06-2004 20:34									#4
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Do some remedial arithmetic.

	09-06-2004 20:57									#5
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Well Bods, I can tell you that a couple of "real" (ie successful) programmer friends of mine will never play the things - after working for a company that serviced them.

You see, before you've put the money in, they've decided if there's a chance of paying out or not.

In the UK, the govt sets the minimum payout of 70% of what you put in.

Of course, that doesn't mean even over a whole lifetime you'll get back exactly 70% of what you put in...

...But every time you put money in, that's the proportion of cash you can expect to get back.

The odds can be skewed if the operator has "stoked" the machine not to pay out at 70%, or the other way if it's malfunctioning or has recently been compromised by a professional gambler...

... A gambling compulsion can cost your money, your self respect, and your life. Set limits, BE ABLE TO WALK AWAY - and you;ll probably be OK.

Personally, I only play them when;-

a) I NEED money (typically to get public transport home).

b) I have SOME money but not enough.

c) If I crap out and lose the lot, it's walkable.

	09-06-2004 21:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy In the UK, the govt sets the minimum payout of 70% of what you put in.

thats what I find funny, it has to say by law on the machine what percentage it pays out. it tells you "If you stick a hundred quid in, I will give you 70% back!!!!!" and people still play the things

the only way to stand a chance is to let a mug feed it for a couple of hours and then jump in when he goes to the bar for change*



*This strategy is adopted at your own risk, I have seen fights break out when people use this method

	09-06-2004 21:17									#7
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A thing I have never been able to work out is whether the person is playing the slot machine or the slot machine is playing the person.

You can certainly support the proposition that it is the machine which initiates everything much easier than the alternative. What with all those (really rather insulting) flashing lights and so on.

I am (or have been) a gambling man. I would be ashamed of being seen trying to buck the 1.25% house edge on a European single zero roulette wheel (well, unless the girl is very pretty). The notion of bucking a 30% house percentage nearly makes me ill.

(As for national lottery tickets, I have to avert my eyes and say an earnest prayer for my species if I see someone buying one of those.)

Oh, and incidentally. If you see a coin tossed thirty times and it comes down heads each time, for God's sake show half an ounce of sense and bet on heads for the thirty-first. The past never has predicted the future but, at least, if it really IS a double headed coin you are doing nothing foolish.

Unless this is all happening on a street corner, another guy makes the bet and wins, and about three guys in the audience with accents not a million miles apart from the coin tossing guy start urging you on as to what easy money it all represents. In that case keep your hand on your wallet as you walk away.

	10-06-2004 03:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader I am (or have been) a gambling man. I would be ashamed of being seen trying to buck the 1.25% house edge on a European single zero roulette wheel (well, unless the girl is very pretty). The notion of bucking a 30% house percentage nearly makes me ill.

Yep, roulettes a bad bet and it's STILL a lot better than the slots!

A bookie works on 15% (ish) profit per race/game/fight so betting on a sport you know something about gives you better odds than slot machines

	10-06-2004 03:32									#9
	Re: Slot Machines Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Anyone play these things? Any hints and tips?

...

You just put coins in and pull a lever, right? How much strategy can there be?

	10-06-2004 04:22									#10
	Re: Re: Slot Machines Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich ... You just put coins in and pull a lever, right? How much strategy can there be?

Nope, they're more 'complicated' now, instead of pulling a lever to get 70% of your money back, you have to press loads of buttons and watch flashing lights.

It makes the punter think he's got more control........

	10-06-2004 04:36									#11
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quote: the only way to stand a chance is to let a mug feed it for a couple of hours and then jump in when he goes to the bar for change*

I'm pretty sure this "strategy" is bollocks.

The machines don't pay out a bunch after they've been paying out nothing; each pull of the lever is guaranteed (by the laws in the jurisdictions I'm familiar with) to be completely independent of the last.

In other words it's like thinking that you're making a good bet on flipping tails because you've just flipped ten heads in a row. Probability doesn't work that way.

	10-06-2004 05:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In other words it's like thinking that you're making a good bet on flipping tails because you've just flipped ten heads in a row. Probability doesn't work that way.

The major, and I mean MAJOR, hole in that argument is that 'heads' (ie. house win) is allowed by law to only come up 70% of the time.

Slot machines don't work on probabilty math, they work on 'x is paid in = y is paid out' it's just a matter of catching them right.

When tossing a coin and getting 100 heads, no-one is saying to the coin "by law, you need to come up tails sometime soon".

Geddit?

	10-06-2004 05:07									#13
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever The major, and I mean MAJOR, hole in that argument is that 'heads' (ie. house win) is allowed by law to only come up 70% of the time. Slot machines don't work on probabilty math, they work on 'x is paid in = y is paid out' it's just a matter of catching them right. Geddit?

Actually, I'm pretty sure this is wrong.

The law could simply require them to have a random number generator which gives the sucker a 70% return. In fact, this is the only system which makes any sense. In other words, putting in a hundred dollars does not guarantee a 70 dollar return; that 70$ return is simply an average.

The only system which would ensure that exactly 70% of the money was returned is the one which takes in 1$ and spits out 70 cents every time. Not very exciting.

	10-06-2004 05:10									#14
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse each pull of the lever is guaranteed (by the laws in the jurisdictions I'm familiar with) to be completely independent of the last.

Not in the UK, see



http://www.fairplay-campaign.co.uk/fruit/

	10-06-2004 05:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In other words, putting in a hundred dollars does not guarantee a 70 dollar return; that 70$ return is simply an average..

Yep, it's just getting to the machine after its 'up', it needs less money to get it's average. I don't think probabilty math has much to do with it?

	10-06-2004 05:15									#16
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..oops!

	10-06-2004 05:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Not in the UK, see http://www.fairplay-campaign.co.uk/fruit/

Could be different there. Only laws I know are in Quebec (where rigging machine based on previous pulls is illegal).

	10-06-2004 05:21									#18
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Actually, the site you linked says nothing about whether or not the machines have a program which absolutely fixes the ratio of wins to losses via counting.

It simply states that the machine knows ahead of time whether you will win or lose. I said nothing about when the random number is generated, simply that it was truly a pseudorandom number and not one determined by previous pulls.

	10-06-2004 05:23									#19
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The only system which would ensure that exactly 70% of the money was returned is the one which takes in 1$ and spits out 70 cents every time. Not very exciting.

In a nutshell thats what its doing, you think that when you've got a '2' on a 'hi-lo', you press 'hi' and the machine comes up with '1' by the laws of probability?

Nope, its decided its past it's 70% return rate so it does someting about it (ie. it 'cheats')

	10-06-2004 05:28									#20
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Yep, it's just getting to the machine after its 'up', it needs less money to get it's average. I don't think probabilty math has much to do with it?

This is exactly the point of contention.

In fact, according to a link on the site you posted

http://www.gbgb.org.uk/machguide_main.html

listing the code of conduct for machine operators,

quote: 5.2 Any feature which creates a series of enriched games, real or apparent, is unacceptable (Board Ruling).

	10-06-2004 05:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever In a nutshell thats what its doing, you think that when you've got a '2' on a 'hi-lo', you press 'hi' and the machine comes up with '1' by the laws of probability? Nope, its decided its past it's 70% return rate so it does someting about it (ie. it 'cheats')

Not true. See the preceding post.

That is not what the site you linked to was contending; it was contending that your win or loss was determined prior to you making a choice on high/low. That's not the same thing.

	10-06-2004 05:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It simply states that the machine knows ahead of time whether you will win or lose. I said nothing about when the random number is generated, simply that it was truly a pseudorandom number and not one determined by previous pulls.

How can it be pseudorandom if the machine knows the result ahead of time?

	10-06-2004 05:37									#23
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The pseudorandomness can be generated ahead of time and used to determine the fate of everybody's spins for the next day, week, month or year.

Let's say we have a simple machine that gives you a choice of high/low. It takes in 1$ and if you win you get 2$.

It has a pseudorandom number generator which creates a list of numbers between 0 and 1. Let's say you're the 754th person to play the machine. You put it your money and gues high or low. In actuality it doesn't matter how you guess because the machine simply looks up the 754th number in its memory. If that number is above 0.6 then you win. If it's below 0.6 then you lose. It then displays an appropriate number to give you the required result.

The pseudorandomness is inside the machine and is not immediately visible to the player. The reason the results are still pseudorandom is that no player without a knowledge of the list of numbers in the computer's memory can make any statement about the chances for a future win based simply on the history of wins.

	10-06-2004 05:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not true. See the preceding post. That is not what the site you linked to was contending; it was contending that your win or loss was determined prior to you making a choice on high/low. That's not the same thing.

Surely, the mere fact anything but pure probability was involved implies shennagins?

	10-06-2004 05:41									#25
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Not at all. It dpends where you want to see pure probability.

The pure probability exists in the sequence of winning pulls. It doesn't matter whether or not the previous pull won or not.

The pure probability does not exist in the number the computer chooses for high low. You get 70 cents on the dollar on average, no matter how extreme the number you're supposed to guess based on is.

In other words, you have the same chance of winning if you see a two if you guess high as if you guess low.

	10-06-2004 05:42									#26
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And that's why I will never ever bet on a game of pure probability.

	10-06-2004 05:44									#27
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You've made my head hurt!!!!!!!

	10-06-2004 05:47									#28
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I don't know how it is over there... but some basic rules for playing slots in the US.

The larger the coin you have to put in, the higher the machine is set to pay out.

Always play the maximum number of coins per pull the machine will take.

In most casinos, they set the machines near the aisles to pay off higher than the machines buried deep in the rows... they want people to see people winning.

When you win a big pay off, walk away from the machine.

And sure, you can watch for machines that are "due"...

	10-06-2004 05:51									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I don't know how it is over there... but some basic rules for playing slots in the US. The larger the coin you have to put in, the higher the machine is set to pay out.

True, because the machine is able to take the same amount of money in faster with a lower percentage rake.

quote: Always play the maximum number of coins per pull the machine will take.

Probably the same dynamic as above.

quote: In most casinos, they set the machines near the aisles to pay off higher than the machines buried deep in the rows... they want people to see people winning.

I've heard that too.

quote: When you win a big pay off, walk away from the machine. And sure, you can watch for machines that are "due"...

I'm pretty sure both of these are untrue.

	10-06-2004 05:52									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That is probably the most persistent myth about slot machines out there.

Some machines may be crooked and guarantee via fixing a certain pattern of payouts and losses, but AFAIK most places have laws that prohibit this type of thing.