24-08-2004 16:02									#451
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Just a quick post this one - more later.

An old friend has been at it again Finbar - I'll not reproduce it in whole here but encourage yourself and the kiwi lads (who may need a valium afterwards!) to read it:

Is he right do you think?

I will quote one selective piece of it:

"Many Kiwis were in a real tizz when I suggested in June that New Zealand had not suddenly become the best thing since sliced bread simply because they had beaten England's exhausted second XV. "

	24-08-2004 17:37									#452
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Some of what he says is sensible. I would dispute that it was an exhausted England 2nd XV. It was a 1st XV minus a couple of players, neither of whom would have changed the results. As I've said before, England's glaring weaknesses - defence, most importantly - played into the ABs' hands.

Anyway, that aside, he's not telling us anything we don't know about the fly half problem.

I tend to agree with him about Tana Umaga's captaincy. I thought the same thing watching him on the field.

His notion of tossing out Howlett and Rokocoko is stupid. They're not the problem. They've been crucified by the idiotic flat backline, the absence of McCaw and Robinson exposing weakness in the forwards, and the problems in the halves. Address those problems and Howlett and Rokocoko ought to be in a position to do their thing.

Oh, and did you hear that Brad Thorn has returned to L***** with the Broncos?

	24-08-2004 18:59									#453
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Mostly fair - though I would argue that any team fielding Chris Jones and Fraser Waters is not a first XV by definition.

Absent through 'resting' and injury (not retirement) - Greenwood, Kay, Robinson, Moody, Vickery, Wilkinson.

Are you absolutely sure you saw the first choice XV rather than all that was left match fit and available?

	25-08-2004 04:44									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Absent through 'resting' and injury (not retirement) - Greenwood, Kay, Robinson, Moody, Vickery, Wilkinson.

Kay? We know why he didn't come. If he'd been a horse in such poor form, he'd've been glue. Moody and Wilkinson would have meant two players who could actually tackle. I wouldn't rank Greenwood any better than those senior players who came. Your biggest problem was the player who couldn't come. He Who Shall Remain Nameless.

quote: Are you absolutely sure you saw the first choice XV rather than all that was left match fit and available?

No, it wasn't the first choice XV. But it wasn't a 2nd XV, as the revisionists would have it.

	25-08-2004 06:27									#455
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Stade Toulousain 24 - Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan 21

This is the second game of the Stade Toulousain in the new French Championship, after a first less than glorious loss away from home against the Section Paloise. Toulouse won thanks to Jean-Baptiste Elissalde who scored 8 penalties while the Catalans scored two pretty tries. It was a tough game with 5 yellow cards and two red ones, the first against the USAP (obviously justified) whose game was far too rough and the second against Jean Bouilhou of the Stade Toulousain (only god would know why if He were existing). The game has been littered with fools, handling errors and numerous bad tactical choices, if the Catalans had been more ambitious (they were obviously only looking for the bonus point rewarding a defeat by less than seven points)... they would have won.

Though the international players were not playing (they are forbidden to do so for the first three dates) it is very worrying, it sounds like the problem is very deep and I am really wondering if it is not because of Guy Novès, the current coach, whom message is no more understood by the players and no more adapted to the reality of modern Rugby.

Very, very

	25-08-2004 06:44									#456
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Back from Italy...

We flew into Venice, and took trains to Florence and Rome. We had a great time. It was a bit hot though - for the most part Italians don't seem to have any real air conditioning, so we had to slink back to the hotel for a cool shower and AC every few hours.

Our flight back stopped in Munich for 5 hours so we took the opportunity to look around. It was great to be somewhere with cooler weather, and the city was far more organised and clean than anything we had experienced in Italy (Rome has a terrible graffiti problem). We had a couple of beers and a delicious pork roast lunch before the long flight back to NYC.

Onto the rugby...obviously I'm not happy with NZ losing it, but at least Australia didn't win.

I thought NZ were pretty stale in their game in SA. It was good to see Mehrtens get a starting spot, and he did do very well, but it was only Monty's misses that kept us in the game.

Bring on the NPC...at least a NZ team is guaranteed to win!

	25-08-2004 13:34									#457
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quote: Onto the rugby...obviously I'm not happy with NZ losing it, but at least Australia didn't win.

A sentiment after my own heart – welcome back!

I did see the news about Thorn Finbar. Inevitable I felt? Not equipped for Union. Suspect he lacks the nounce for it?

quote: Anyway, as I've said before, we have no shortage of young backline talent. We have it coming out our ears. Front rowers remain a different matter!

An English mud bath of a pitch in November is the perfect place for a front row with a lack of talent?

quote: A-ha! And the hierarchy couldn't ignore them either. Ta-ta Clive!

I worry he has a contract like his S***** counterpart – I think it may cost a fortune to get rid of him if the need arises.

quote: But, at the moment, he's safe. I must check out some of the Kiwi rugby media online, see what's being said.

At the moment I am sure they are mainly still looking outward at the Boks and Wallabies – give it a few weeks and the introspection may start. They will be better off without him IMHO.

quote: I tend to agree with him about Tana Umaga's captaincy. I thought the same thing watching him on the field.

Far too nice to be a skipper is my impression too. But then they have a touch of the English problem here – if not him then who? Marshall – god forbid?! Jack seems destined to do it at some point but right now he is badly out of sorts by his own standards. Who else commands a place and is a suitable candidate?

quote: Address those problems and Howlett and Rokocoko ought to be in a position to do their thing.

The problem comes if on the tour they destroy some lesser teams with that backline and Henry sticks with it.

quote: Kay? We know why he didn't come. If he'd been a horse in such poor form, he'd've been glue

Poor old Ben – player of the year in 2002 and the forgotten man of 2004 for club and country. He will be back of course – Shaw failed to live up to his form and Grewcock was an embarrassment down south. By only picking Brown and Deacon for the Academy squad Clive has indicated he thinks they are twelve months or so off the senior squad – therefore Benny will come straight back in.

This may not be so bad – he was apparently so upset by being sat on Tigers bench after the RWC and Clive forcibly resting him that in pre-season he has looked really hungry and sharp again. I hope so for his sake.

Greenwood is a funny player – no middle ground, he is either devastating or anonymous. He is no Mortlock though I agree. I honestly think that Ollie Smith's time has come for the 13 shirt – lets see if Clive agrees?

quote: No, it wasn't the first choice XV. But it wasn't a 2nd XV, as the revisionists would have it.

It was the best fit and available so it can’t have been a ‘second XV’. It was a valid point that all the players involved had played almost every week from the RWC final through to the June tour and must have been tired. In that time several of them will have played more first class games than a tri-nations player can manage in a full season (even if he makes every start for franchise and country).

We continue to ask far too much of our players. June emphasised that.

Tamerlin – I thought Toulouse always started slowly? At least they won?

	25-08-2004 15:56									#458
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Tamerlin – I thought Toulouse always started slowly? At least they won?

That is more or less true (OK, more than less) but the two last performances were terrible and really poor as far as the quality of the game is concerned.

Since 1996, the quality of Toulouse's game is becoming poorer and poorer and what was known as the game "à la Toulousaine" is now "une vue de l'esprit" (a mind sight). Every game, I have the feeling that the players are trapped into a pre-determined way of playing and that individual actions are severely punished. Of course it is the beginning of the season, of course the international players are not playing... but this is equally true for the other clubs.

Welcome back Caligastia...

	25-08-2004 16:46									#459
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So they are playing an overly structured game in essence - the renowned Gallic flair is being discouraged? If so it is a real shame.

It is never easy for clubs like Toulouse and Tigers, who have been giants, to go through mediocre patches. We must console oursleves with the fact that coaches come and go, as do philsophies on style of play, but our clubs go on for ever and the good times will return.

I must watch your European games to see how things are.

	25-08-2004 18:34									#460
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I did see the news about Thorn Finbar. Inevitable I felt? Not equipped for Union. Suspect he lacks the nounce for it?

Inevitable, I thought, too. Don't know about the nounce. He didn't have a rugby background. He had a dream.

quote: An English mud bath of a pitch in November is the perfect place for a front row with a lack of talent?

quote: I worry he has a contract like his S***** counterpart – I think it may cost a fortune to get rid of him if the need arises.

Paula Ratcliffe could be available.

quote: Far too nice to be a skipper is my impression too. But then they have a touch of the English problem here – if not him then who? Marshall – god forbid?! Jack seems destined to do it at some point but right now he is badly out of sorts by his own standards. Who else commands a place and is a suitable candidate?

Good question. Someone who commands a place, has tactical nouse, can lead, and, just as importantly, inspire. They're rare beasts. Tana has a couple of those attributes, but, perhaps, not the right ones. I still think Taine Randall was flicked too soon. He was unlucky to lead them when they were at a low ebb. Chris Jack? Well, he's rapidly becoming a senior player. He might have it in him in a sort of John Eales fashion. Beyond that, I can't see anyone.

quote: The problem comes if on the tour they destroy some lesser teams with that backline and Henry sticks with it.

Well, yes. Look at the false hope England gave them.

quote: This may not be so bad – he was apparently so upset by being sat on Tigers bench after the RWC and Clive forcibly resting him that in pre-season he has looked really hungry and sharp again. I hope so for his sake.

Straight back in as the senior lock, hm? Big ask. We shall see.

quote: Greenwood is a funny player – no middle ground, he is either devastating or anonymous. He is no Mortlock though I agree. I honestly think that Ollie Smith's time has come for the 13 shirt – lets see if Clive agrees?

Just as long as M. Catt is thanked for his services and sent on his way.

quote: We continue to ask far too much of our players. June emphasised that.

Yes, well, until the bank balance becomes less of a priority ...

	25-08-2004 18:36									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin That is more or less true (OK, more than less) but the two last performances were terrible and really poor as far as the quality of the game is concerned. Since 1996, the quality of Toulouse's game is becoming poorer and poorer and what was known as the game "à la Toulousaine" is now "une vue de l'esprit" (a mind sight). Every game, I have the feeling that the players are trapped into a pre-determined way of playing and that individual actions are severely punished. Of course it is the beginning of the season, of course the international players are not playing... but this is equally true for the other clubs.

1. Why aren't the international players playing?

2. I've been giving thought to Toulouse's plight since 1996. Might it be that you haven't attended an away match since 1996?

	25-08-2004 19:26									#462
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quote: Paula Ratcliffe could be available.

Low blow referee!!

quote: He might have it in him in a sort of John Eales fashion. Beyond that, I can't see anyone.

It could be the right man is not yet in the squad? It seems likely that pack will be shaken up at some point. I wonder if McCaw has it in him?

quote: Well, yes. Look at the false hope England gave them.

If only we could play them in November up here so I could prove they were flukes. All three test flukes that is.

quote: Straight back in as the senior lock, hm? Big ask. We shall see.

Put money on it? The official line was always that Ben needed the summer off for total rest and would return in the autumn – in fact I am almost quoting Sir Clive exactly.

quote: Just as long as M. Catt is thanked for his services and sent on his way.

Did I forget to mention he missed out on the 2004/05 training squad? Silly me! His England career is now well and truly over as that squad was named after the “tour from hell 2” as I now call it.

quote: Yes, well, until the bank balance becomes less of a priority ...

Never will sadly. We could go the whole hog and start a franchised compo like S12 so more cash was spread to fewer franchises that played less but I wouldn’t be keen myself – The “East Midlands Sainted Tigers”? - :Scared:

The French prevent Foreigners playing in August because they feel the lads deserve and extra months holiday perhaps?

	26-08-2004 02:37									#463
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quote: Originally posted by finbar 1. Why aren't the international players playing?

Havak is right, the French internationals are allowed three more weeks of rest because of the summer test matches.

quote: 2. I've been giving thought to Toulouse's plight since 1996. Might it be that you haven't attended an away match since 1996?

Wrong, the last season is the second time only I have not attended at least a final phase game away from home.

But I am a season ticket holder since 1997 so I have seen the game of the Stade Toulousain changing and becoming poorer and poorer from one year to the other. The Stade Toulousain is stagnating since this golden 1996 year but it was so ahead of its time in France that this weakness has been compensated for a few years before the other clubs catched up their delay.

	26-08-2004 08:28									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It could be the right man is not yet in the squad? It seems likely that pack will be shaken up at some point. I wonder if McCaw has it in him?

Mmm. I forgot about McCaw. He's a distinct possibility. More inspiring than Chris Jack. I wonder how he is tactically?

quote: Did I forget to mention he missed out on the 2004/05 training squad? Silly me! His England career is now well and truly over as that squad was named after the “tour from hell 2” as I now call it.

Good thing too. Next, get rid of The Nose and, amongst others, that skinny winger who couldn't tackle to save himself. And find an aggressive scrum half who can mix things up a bit. I'll get back to you with more advice later.

	26-08-2004 08:31									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Havak is right, the French internationals are allowed three more weeks of rest because of the summer test matches.

Presumably to let the blonde tips mature a bit!

quote: Wrong, the last season is the second time only I have not attended at least a final phase game away from home.

Mmmm. Okay, so it's not all your fault.

quote: But I am a season ticket holder since 1997 so I have seen the game of the Stade Toulousain changing and becoming poorer and poorer from one year to the other. The Stade Toulousain is stagnating since this golden 1996 year but it was so ahead of its time in France that this weakness has been compensated for a few years before the other clubs catched up their delay.

I'm sure you've told me before, but how long has this coach been around the club?

	26-08-2004 13:17									#466
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Totally off topic but I have been amusing myself this week with British Airways attempts to run a business – they have seemingly demoralised staff to the extent that actually have such a ‘churn’ rate now that they cannot staff check ins appropriately – when I saw their chief exec on TV trying to defend himself and the dulset tones were unmistakeable. It was Mr Rod Eddington, Aussie businessman and legend in his own lunch time. Now the name rang a bell – is this the same Rod Eddington who helmed Ansett Australia, that famously failed Aussie airline? One wonders if so what the hell BA were thinking in appointing him?

quote: I wonder how he is tactically?

As soon as he is fit he will come straight back in – so give him the armband and lets see. It will also have the bonus of letting Umaga concentrate on what he is good at – playing.

quote: Good thing too. Next, get rid of The Nose and, amongst others, that skinny winger who couldn't tackle to save himself. And find an aggressive scrum half who can mix things up a bit. I'll get back to you with more advice later.

Keep em coming – agree entirely on Dallaglio and Simpson-Daniel. There are already two scrummies in the system matching your requirement – Ellis was on the SH tour but Clive didn’t use him. Now Dawson has blown it his chance may be here. The other lad is Martyn Wood who went to Canada. Both are feisty scrummies and both have seen the disciplinary committee in the past.

I’m not exactly proud of it but Ellis got a ten match ban last season after an altercation with Sale winger Steve Hanley early last season. Now Ellis is typical scrummie build and Hanley is Ben Cohen build but when hanely got in his face the young lad mixed it up and then, exercising youthful poor judgement, stuck a ‘Glasgow Kiss’ on Hanley.

I can sympathise – last season when Sale did well early on Hanley and his wing partner Cueto (English despite the name) were a pain in the backside – winding oppo fans up and acting like petulant school kids – just like a Marshall or Healey in fact. Ellis should not have done it – but it was strangely fulfilling to watch.

The big question is – is a Glasgow kissing scrummie aggressive enough for you?

In all seriousness his club coach John Wells thinks not playing down south may have been good for him – he is still young and Wells says whilst he has strengths playing in games so thoroughly on the back foot would have exposed his weaknesses. He wants to see him acclimatised to England at HQ and given time to eliminate the weak areas.

I don’t mean to ruin the mood of introspection about Toulouse but you know I am sure I remember them winning the European Cup as recently as 2003? Truly a coach is only as good as his teams last result?

	26-08-2004 14:53									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I don’t mean to ruin the mood of introspection about Toulouse but you know I am sure I remember them winning the European Cup as recently as 2003? Truly a coach is only as good as his teams last result?

A tight victory against an USAP out of shape until the second half followed by a sound defeat against the Stade Français the next week in the Stade de France.

	26-08-2004 14:57									#468
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'm sure you've told me before, but how long has this coach been around the club?

Guy Novès is coaching the Stade Toulousain since 1993...

	26-08-2004 17:24									#469
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Totally off topic but I have been amusing myself this week with British Airways attempts to run a business – they have seemingly demoralised staff to the extent that actually have such a ‘churn’ rate now that they cannot staff check ins appropriately – when I saw their chief exec on TV trying to defend himself and the dulset tones were unmistakeable. It was Mr Rod Eddington, Aussie businessman and legend in his own lunch time. Now the name rang a bell – is this the same Rod Eddington who helmed Ansett Australia, that famously failed Aussie airline? One wonders if so what the hell BA were thinking in appointing him?

Same Rod Eddington. Most of Ansett's problems arose after he left, after Air New Zealand bought the controlling interest. Although it could be argued that News Ltd hadn't spent enough on the airline when they had it and Eddington ran it. Air New Zealand were virtually bankrupt themselves when they bought Ansett and stuffed Ansett completely.

quote: As soon as he is fit he will come straight back in – so give him the armband and lets see. It will also have the bonus of letting Umaga concentrate on what he is good at – playing.

Good idea. Won't happen, but it probably should.

quote: The big question is – is a Glasgow kissing scrummie aggressive enough for you?

Put it this way. I don't mind a scrummie whom you'd think is capable of it. Take no prisoners, as it were. Without resorting to thuggery. Keeps the oppo on their toes, can lift the teammates' spirits.

quote: I don’t mean to ruin the mood of introspection about Toulouse but you know I am sure I remember them winning the European Cup as recently as 2003?

Stop interfering with Tamerlin's introspection! I like Tamerlin in introspective mode!

	26-08-2004 17:25									#470
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin A tight victory against an USAP out of shape until the second half followed by a sound defeat against the Stade Français the next week in the Stade de France.

Break out the absinthe!

	26-08-2004 17:26									#471
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Guy Novès is coaching the Stade Toulousain since 1993...

Ah, that's right. Much too long. Fresh blood, fresh ideas.

	27-08-2004 02:46									#472
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Ah, that's right. Much too long. Fresh blood, fresh ideas.

IMO, it is far too long. Though Guy Novès' achievements are tremenduous, two H-Cups (1996, 2003), six Brennus' shields (1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2001) and two Du Manoir's Challenge (former French cup), I think that he is no more able to handle the new generation of players and build the game project of the future.

	27-08-2004 06:07									#473
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That's the problem with legends. They become embedded. Common sense can say that it's time for change, but it's interpreted as heresy.

	27-08-2004 14:50									#474
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quote: A tight victory against an USAP out of shape until the second half followed by a sound defeat against the Stade Français the next week in the Stade de France.

File it away under ‘disappointing’ and then cheer as you beat them yet again this year. For we all know Stade Francais are only good about once every four seasons?

quote: Air New Zealand were virtually bankrupt themselves when they bought Ansett and stuffed Ansett completely.

I got to sample the Air NZ Ansett era as I flew with both on my visit to your wonderful country.

Rod Eddington has pledged himself and the senior execs to work over this weekend (bank holiday) to try and help alleviate their problems. Should be fun.

quote: Good idea. Won't happen, but it probably should.

It requires that same requisite as the flat back line – Graham Henry admitting he was wrong. Snowballs chance in hell of it happening therefore.

quote: Keeps the oppo on their toes, can lift the teammates' spirits.

It was very out of character for Ellis when he decked Hanley – but then the Sale man was being insufferable. I think Ellis will do nicely for England in time. But again it is pre-requisites – Sir Clive needs to make that leap and pick on form rather than from the currently most successful clubs…

quote: I like Tamerlin in introspective mode!

Only because it gives you enough material for a mini-series.


I hear the the Wallaby coaching staff is being shook up Finbar – Blades has gone hasn’t he? And Auckland have secured Nocifura. I still can’t understand ACT on that – you don’t sack winning coaches.

Ben Kay skippers the Tigers in the friendly with Cardiff tomorrow – Jonno shines the bench as he is nursing a slight knee injury. Kay himself missed last week with a back niggle. Neil Back is a doubt for a fortnight with a hammy strain. Nice to see this season is starting like all others!

At least Ollie Smith is fit after the groin oppo this summer – I hope this is his big break through season for England if only to spare you Will Greenwood in future. Will has incidentally stated this week he is as keen as ever and will fight for England selection. Clive really rates him so it will be goodbye Abbott and Waters and hello Greenwood and Smith hopefully.

*edit* Otago have released Rabeni early from NPC duty after he requested it. He plays his last game for them Friday and touches down at Heathrow on Sunday.

Now if you could have a word with Mortlock Finbar and send him the same way please? Latham will do at a push.

	27-08-2004 23:21									#475
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quote: Every game, I have the feeling that the players are trapped into a pre-determined way of playing and that individual actions are severely punished.

I think they have been using strict tactics for quite a long time. Toulouse had structure play and plans for almost everything since I remember seeing them play. Even a try like Charvet's against Toulon way back came from an unlikely phase of play that had been analysed by the coaches, although it looked like an individual feat.
I remember several Toulousains being bad in France team because the tactics they were used to were so different they couldn't adapt. So I think you're right, Toulouse probably has a style of play which is based on tactics that no longer work, and they are having trouble getting out of these schemas.

On the bright side, there's a test match in Paris against the ABs for my birthday. With a bit of luck, I'll manage to get a ticket (this requires convincing my wife first, but since that will be my birthday, I think I can do it).

	28-08-2004 05:31									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I hear the the Wallaby coaching staff is being shook up Finbar – Blades has gone hasn’t he? And Auckland have secured Nocifura. I still can’t understand ACT on that – you don’t sack winning coaches.

Yep. Blades gone as forwards coach, Roger Gould gone as backs coach. Blades is more of the surprise because he came back from Newcastle to do the job. There haven't been any rumors of dissent or discord. I'll keep an ear to the ground.

We've batted around the Nucifora thing before. Brumbies player power. I actually thought he'd end up back in Queensland with the Reds. He's a toughie and a pragmatist. Auckland will probably suit him.

quote: Ben Kay skippers the Tigers in the friendly with Cardiff tomorrow – Jonno shines the bench as he is nursing a slight knee injury. Kay himself missed last week with a back niggle. Neil Back is a doubt for a fortnight with a hammy strain. Nice to see this season is starting like all others!

J**** and Neil Back - that would be a combined age of, what? Close to 70?

quote: At least Ollie Smith is fit after the groin oppo this summer – I hope this is his big break through season for England if only to spare you Will Greenwood in future.

It's just that, for me, Greenwood sort of represents everything girlie in backs.

quote: *edit* Otago have released Rabeni early from NPC duty after he requested it. He plays his last game for them Friday and touches down at Heathrow on Sunday.

Oh well, if you've been to the Otago area, you'd understand that he'll have little trouble adjusting to the East Midlands.

quote: Now if you could have a word with Mortlock Finbar and send him the same way please? Latham will do at a push.

Grow your own! Actually, Matt Rogers' return will make life interesting again for Chris Latham. Latham was second string to Joe Roff, he could be the same again for Matt Rogers.

	28-08-2004 05:34									#477
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare ISo I think you're right, Toulouse probably has a style of play which is based on tactics that no longer work, and they are having trouble getting out of these schemas.

If the coach hasn't realised that, or tried to do something about it, time for a new coach, methinks.

quote: On the bright side, there's a test match in Paris against the ABs for my birthday. With a bit of luck, I'll manage to get a ticket (this requires convincing my wife first, but since that will be my birthday, I think I can do it).

Tell her to forget the usual present of socks and undies and make it a Test match ticket instead.

	28-08-2004 18:14									#478
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quote: Originally posted by finbar If the coach hasn't realised that, or tried to do something about it, time for a new coach, methinks.

The problem, IMHO, is that the Novès family has locked its position into the Stade Toulousain's staff and that they are currently the true managers of the Rugby, the President, Mister Bouscatel, is nothing more than a screen.

	28-08-2004 19:21									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The problem, IMHO, is that the Novès family has locked its position into the Stade Toulousain's staff and that they are currently the true managers of the Rugby, the President, Mister Bouscatel, is nothing more than a screen.

Then you should organise your family to overthrow the Novès regime and start the Tamerlin dynastie!

	29-08-2004 04:22									#480
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I have to wait until the tadpole becomes a frog.