11-06-2004 02:15									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian And you think that the threat of sanctions might change their minds on the matter, and make them stop? I'm skeptical. I think the options are: 1) invade 2) take the undesirables out of there Neither of which is a great solution, I know. -Arrian

its a poor country. It has govt that wants to develop - if only to buy palaces and shiny weapons. It has oil and gas, BUT it needs investment to develop them. Its worth a shot - obviously i wouldnt wait to long, not with people dying.

But if we cant get the great powers to agree to sanctions how can we get them to agree to war?

	11-06-2004 02:18									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Definately a bad situation, but it wasn't genocide in Congo . . . at least not until the Rift Valley countries invaded. And it's actually more complicated than that, but it's definately not the same situation.

but we dont know what the result of a chad-sudan war would be - it might be very prolonged and very bloody. Theres also the chance, in a prolonged war, of an AQ state in Sudan - that could be overthrown by the West, but might escalate West - Muslim tensions.


Far better to act FAST, and Surgically. And that means Western troops, not 3rd world troops.

	11-06-2004 02:19									#33
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Well, like I said before, I think option #1 is right out. Even if Iraq wasn't happening, it still wouldn't stand much of a chance, IMO.

That leaves #2, which has slightly worse odds than a snowball surviving a day in hell.

Which leaves sanctions, which worry me greatly. *sigh*

Maybe you're right and they could work in this specific case. I dunno.

What I *do* know is that my workday is over and I can go home.

-Arrian

	11-06-2004 02:23									#34
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The first thing, I guess, to do, is to get recognition that a genocide is taking place.

	11-06-2004 02:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 1. AIPAC does both lobbying AND letter writing. they certainly spend money on letter writing campaigns. So do corporations as a matter of fact.

Yes, they pay people to collect names and addresses and then send mass mailings of form letters- I have dealt with such letters myself.

quote: 2. Yup, only the staff see it. and they count em, and report the totals.

Well, only if it is more than 1 really.

quote: 3. Christian groups - im not sure if theyre taking it up, as the victims are muslims, not christians as in the south. In any case, why not add more weight - why should someone elses action argue for inaction.

They already have stuff in Sudan and dislike the government-besides, they might always have missionary interests in the area anyway. I am sure they are already on it. As for adding your voice, go right ahead, its your right. I am pointing out that this issue will be mainly ignored due to its location, sadly.

	11-06-2004 02:29									#36
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SGS: Stop the Genocide in Sudan!

	11-06-2004 02:29									#37
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quote: Originally posted by GePap 2. Yup, only the staff see it. and they count em, and report the totals. [/q] Well, only if it is more than 1 really.

well yes, thats why you organize. we have here a forum of people, in many countries, who are happy to spend time flaming each other about who cares about oppression, etc. Why not use this tool TO DO something, instead of whining. and, BTW, why not do the same on other internet forums?

(bows hat to Howard Dean)

	11-06-2004 02:36									#38
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So, website with information on the genocide and how people can help? At least to start?

	11-06-2004 03:04									#39
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Sudan was a British colony right? I suppose they could repeat what they did in Sierra Leone (though with Sudan's size they'd probably need more help), if it weren't for Iraq and Afghanistan taking most of thir soldiers at the moment.

	11-06-2004 03:08									#40
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Sudan was a joint British-Egyptian territory, since the UK sought control only after they took control in Egypt, and Egyptian forces were already in the Sudan.

	11-06-2004 04:21									#41
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I say UN intervention with a joint Euro / Egyptian leadership (and heavy on Egyptian troops).

I wouldn't trust such a force to do wonders, but I would trust it to stop the genocide and set up a relatively safe zone, given that violence comes mostly from lawful, exterior troops.

	11-06-2004 04:25									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The first thing, I guess, to do, is to get recognition that a genocide is taking place.

That would be good.

Here, the TV media started talking about Darfur only 3 days ago, as a team of journalists sent their report after a week there or so. The tone of the article was far less accusatory as what it should have been. Sure, we only got to see the vsurvivors of the ethnic cleansing, and not the perpetrators, but it really didn't insist on the blatant: a government-made ethnic cleansing.

It may have to do with Sudan giving us something in the past (renowned terrorist Carlos), traded for France's neutrality in Sudan's internal affairs.

	11-06-2004 04:38									#43
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The problem is, once it is officially recognized as a genocide, governments are legally required to get involved. Thus they will try to pretend it is someting else.

	11-06-2004 04:40									#44
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*horrible memories of Rwanda*

	11-06-2004 05:40									#45
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My Plan:

1. Invade
2. split the country or give the Arab-dominated north to Egypt
3. Let the blacks in the south live in peace
4. Punish those behind the genocide
5. help the new nation in the south economically and finacially

A plan similar to this could also help in Nigeria if the muslims there get any big ideas (*cough* Sharia Law *cough*).

	11-06-2004 07:45									#46
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It's been going on for the better part of a decade or more. Who the hell really cares?

	11-06-2004 09:28									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor *horrible memories of Rwanda*

Exactly.

The world community needs to go in and establish peace. This is yet another reason why the UN needs some type of peacemaking force that has the strength to assert itself. There would be problems, but anything is better than ignoring what's going on.

	11-06-2004 10:29									#48
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quote: A plan similar to this could also help in Nigeria if the muslims there get any big ideas (*cough* Sharia Law *cough*).

As long as they don't engage in genocide or whatnot, can't they decide on their own laws?

	12-06-2004 00:10									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui As long as they don't engage in genocide or whatnot, can't they decide on their own laws?

1. The majority of Nigerians are Christian
2. Muslims in the north are forcing Sharia on non-muslims there.
3. Sharia violates civil rights

	12-06-2004 00:26									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Verto And if we did intervene, we would have protests about American imperialism, American policing, American soldiers dying for oil, bla bla bla. If the UN is so concerned about human rights, it should intervene.

When countries intervene for humanitarian purposes, I am all for it then. Sorry -- you don't have me cornered with hypocrisy.

	12-06-2004 01:26									#51
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quote: 1. The majority of Nigerians are Christian 2. Muslims in the north are forcing Sharia on non-muslims there. 3. Sharia violates civil rights

So you want to go take out every dictatorship in the world or any government where the minority is in charge? Are you ready to declare war on China?

And so what if Sharia violates our civil rights? Are we going to go war over our version of civil rights? I don't think so.

	12-06-2004 01:29									#52
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Imran is wise.

If you want to impose our version of civil liberties on the world by force, saddle up and get ready to invade just about everyone. Including France (headscarf ban, anyone?).

Hmm, well, maybe the idea has merit...

-Arrian

	12-06-2004 01:33									#53
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Peacekeepers.

	12-06-2004 01:37									#54
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To do what? You havw to have peace in order to have something to keep.

	12-06-2004 01:43									#55
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Stop being obtuse. I just mean a UN intervention.

	12-06-2004 01:47									#56
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Because they are doing such a bang up job in the Congo loosing control of whole cities?

	12-06-2004 01:48									#57
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Since US diplomatic pressure has been instrumental in ending (sort of) the war in the South, I would still hold some hope that pressurizing Khartoum can help. Hopefully before two million people die.

	12-06-2004 03:15									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: 1. The majority of Nigerians are Christian 2. Muslims in the north are forcing Sharia on non-muslims there. 3. Sharia violates civil rights So you want to go take out every dictatorship in the world or any government where the minority is in charge? Are you ready to declare war on China? And so what if Sharia violates our civil rights? Are we going to go war over our version of civil rights? I don't think so.

So because there are some incidents where it really is not feasible to take out a dictatorship, we should not try to do when it is much more likely chance for a successful intervention?

	14-06-2004 23:11									#59
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Since some of you asked for a link, heres a Beeb article on the statement at the G8 summit. It includes some background.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3794041.stm

	14-06-2004 23:14									#60
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Last night on NPR, they (NGOs) said there were "only" 150,000 refugees from Darfur.