15-06-2004 01:30									#91
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I care more about my house than I do about Africa. Who would we split the spoils of this "civilizing" mission with?

	15-06-2004 01:33									#92
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Africa is quite wealthy when it comes to resources.

	15-06-2004 01:40									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I care more about my house than I do about Africa. Who would we split the spoils of this "civilizing" mission with?

Whoever is willing to be our lap dog in carrying it out, without chewing our slippers or pissing on the carpet. Now that we've got the UK on board, we don't need much else.

	15-06-2004 01:43									#94
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Ok, now I think you're out of YOUR ****ing mind, MtG. Take over Africa? Really go for an Empire? Come on, that's even more far-fetched than a successful UN intervention in Sudan. It would require: 1) an American public that actually WANTS empire; 2) a shitload more ground troops; 3) that the rest of the world will just roll over and take it in the ass, which I don't think they will do if they *really* think we're after an empire.

-Arrian

	15-06-2004 01:50									#95
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Well, then the alternative (since the bandaid approach is a known chronic failure) is to do nothing more than whatever token approach makes us individually feel good.

	15-06-2004 01:57									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Do you just exterminate cockroaches in the kitchen and let them wander around at will near the trash can outside the garage?

Depends on the part of the country in which you live. Exterminating cockroaches outside in Florida is a bit like swatting moquitoes in Minnesota, a wast of time.

	15-06-2004 02:01									#97
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How does being halfassed and not getting in the way of the thugs and letting them do their thing until they get bored "save lives?" It doesn't. It just takes credit for being around at the moment the thugs figured they'd killed enough people for this go-round.

Im not quite sure what youre talking about, actually. Can you give me an example of an intervention where the thugs just got bored? Are you talking about Kosovo? Rwanda?

Im not advocating we wait till it stops before we act. I am suggesting that we act to stop the genocide, and not to overthrow the Sudanese govt, unless that should prove necessary. I am suggesting that we use threats, whether of force or sanctions - it would take a while to prepare force anyway, so we might as well threaten.

The UN forces have disadvantages. US forces are overstreched. I suggest using whatever force is available, IF it comes to that.

	15-06-2004 02:05									#98
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I'm not just talking interventions, but the fact that the thugs usually get bored before they kill off everybody - whether there's an intervention or not.

Somalia, Rwanda and Cambodia are nice starter examples, though.

	15-06-2004 02:08									#99
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I'm not just talking interventions, but the fact that the thugs usually get bored before they kill off everybody - whether there's an intervention or not. Somalia, Rwanda and Cambodia are nice starter examples, though.

In rwanda the Hutu genocidaire thugs were driven off by the Tutsi forces from outside. In cambodia the Khmer Rouge were driven off by the Viet Namese Army. No credit to the West in either instance, but hardly a case of the genocidaires getting bored.

In somalia there was no organized genocide. Just a failed state and lots of interclan warfare and associated hunger.

	15-06-2004 02:11									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I care more about my house than I do about Africa.

RACIST!!

	15-06-2004 02:11									#101
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canada calls on UNSC to act

evidence of summary executions of civilians

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...anada_sudan_col

	15-06-2004 02:16									#102
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Depends on the part of the country in which you live. Exterminating cockroaches outside in Florida is a bit like swatting moquitoes in Minnesota, a wast of time.

The two legged variety of cockroach can be killed faster than hatchlings grow up enough to become a capable two-legged cockroach.

The six-legged variety does tend to have a faster pain-in-the-ass cycle.

	15-06-2004 02:20									#103
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Yeah, but when you swat one of them, two others sprout up to take his place.

	15-06-2004 02:26									#104
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, but when you swat one of them, two others sprout up to take his place.

Swat them too. They'll run out of cockroaches before we run out of swatters.

	15-06-2004 03:52									#105
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quote: We didn't "lose control" - we relaxed our grip so as to minimize the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would result if we decided to seriously exercise control.

The effect's the same. Holding onto Najaf or Fallujah was politically untenable for us at times, just as it was militarily untenable for the UN to hold onto Bakuva. That the UN allowed Bakuva to fall into rebel hands doesn't make their peacekeeping forces useless.

	15-06-2004 04:10									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That the UN allowed Bakuva to fall into rebel hands doesn't make their peacekeeping forces useless.

Srebrenica makes a good start in that area though.

	15-06-2004 19:19									#107
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bump

	15-06-2004 19:46									#108
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In rwanda the Hutu genocidaire thugs were driven off by the Tutsi forces from outside. In cambodia the Khmer Rouge were driven off by the Viet Namese Army. No credit to the West in either instance, but hardly a case of the genocidaires getting bored.

Only once those problems spilled over into neighboring countries. If you've got a civil war or flood of refugees or some other security threat coming into your own country, you'll likely do something about it. Meanwhile, plenty of killing will get done without interference, and as long as you don't spill over into your neighbor's laps, nobody really cares.

quote: In somalia there was no organized genocide. Just a failed state and lots of interclan warfare and associated hunger.

So a clan based system of systematic theft of food relief from starving people of the wrong clans and tribes isn't genocide? Let's just let people starve by cutting off their food supplies, that'll be A-OK with everybody.

	15-06-2004 19:47									#109
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark canada calls on UNSC to act evidence of summary executions of civilians http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...anada_sudan_col

Maybe the UNSC members will get together and express their "grave concerns." That should be a real deterrent.

	15-06-2004 20:06									#110
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Only once those problems spilled over into neighboring countries. If you've got a civil war or flood of refugees or some other security threat coming into your own country, you'll likely do something about it. Meanwhile, plenty of killing will get done without interference, and as long as you don't spill over into your neighbor's laps, nobody really cares.

Well, the UN's role in Rwanda is even worse than this, as they were already involved in Rwanda due to the ongoing war, and cut back as the genocide got going.

quote: So a clan based system of systematic theft of food relief from starving people of the wrong clans and tribes isn't genocide? Let's just let people starve by cutting off their food supplies, that'll be A-OK with everybody.

No, it isn't. Genocide has a definition, and somalia did not fit it. Just killing lots of people isn't genocide, just like every homicide isn't going to be the same as a regicide.

	15-06-2004 20:58									#111
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So explain to me how systematic plundering of food and medical supplies for certain tribal groups, by other tribal groups who are traditional enemies, does not apply?

The Somalis were a bit loose about it, so not everyone who died as a result of aid plundering and denial was in the targeted groups, but the intent included systematic killing of enemies who were defined as such by their tribal origin and clans.

	15-06-2004 21:04									#112
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It becomes an issue of intent sadly- are they doding this to make the other side give in to their tribes power? (sort of "strategic warfare", a low tech version of blockades and strategic bombings), or to wipe them out completely?

After all, a siege or blockade is the same thing, yet neither falls under the definition of genocide-unless what you aim to do is not make the otehr guy surrender, but to kill him off completely.

	15-06-2004 21:40									#113
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Well, when you have a bunch of starving people from the wrong tribe, and you show up and force them at gunpoint to load onto your trucks food aid that was just dropped off by relief organizations, it's pretty predictable what will happen. No, the UN or NGO's won't be back with another shipment, and no, these people won't suddenly evolve the ability to eat sand.

Intent seemed pretty clear to me. The UNISOM I and UNISOM II missions were just forbidden from engaging these *******s unless they attacked UN peacekeepers or UN sponsored relief organizations. Following them in your own trucks to steal the food the moment the relief organizations left the scene didn't count.