14-06-2004 23:20									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Last night on NPR, they (NGOs) said there were "only" 150,000 refugees from Darfur.

apparently thats the number of refugees in Chad. There seem to be plenty of refugees still on the Sudan side of the borders, and some(Many?) who are still in their homes, having not yet been ethnically cleansed.


Legal note : yes, there are obligations to intervene under the Genocide convention, if this is officially called a genocide, and so states are reluctant to do so. I think we can agree that ethnic cleansing involving the deliberate infliction of starvation comes close enough to genocide to make the prevention of said urgent. I want states and the UN to act, I dont really care what they call it.

	14-06-2004 23:23									#62
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quote: It's been going on for the better part of a decade or more. Who the hell really cares?

There's no genocide, so I don't.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Peacekeepers.

I agree.

	14-06-2004 23:24									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If the US is so concerned about human rights we should intervene.

I thought we did.

quote: Sudanese peasants will be naming their sons ``George Bush'' because he scored a humanitarian victory last week that could be a momentous event around the globe -- although almost nobody noticed. It was Bush administration diplomacy that led to an accord to end a 20-year civil war between Sudan's north and south after 2 million deaths. If the peace holds, hundreds of thousands of lives will be saved, millions of refugees will return home, and a region of Africa may be revived.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc.../8808070.htm?1c

That's not to say this won't fail, or that we can't do more, but we've certainly done something

	14-06-2004 23:28									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That would be good. Here, the TV media started talking about Darfur only 3 days ago, as a team of journalists sent their report after a week there or so. The tone of the article was far less accusatory as what it should have been. Sure, we only got to see the vsurvivors of the ethnic cleansing, and not the perpetrators, but it really didn't insist on the blatant: a government-made ethnic cleansing. It may have to do with Sudan giving us something in the past (renowned terrorist Carlos), traded for France's neutrality in Sudan's internal affairs.

\

The US has tended to look away, as Sudan has helped in the fight against Al Qaeeda, and has pursued a peace in the South.

That to me, is why this is important. We need to make clear that even help on other issues wont make us look away from genocide. The US govt has started to make some noises in this direction, but IMHO wont go far enough unless pressed.

	14-06-2004 23:30									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Edan I thought we did. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc.../8808070.htm?1c That's not to say this won't fail, or that we can't do more, but we've certainly done something

But the concern is that to keep the accord in the South, we might ignore whats happening in the West. The parallel is with the Balkans, where we we overfocused on an accord in Bosnia, and ignored Kosovo till it was almost too late.

	14-06-2004 23:37									#66
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quote: So because there are some incidents where it really is not feasible to take out a dictatorship, we should not try to do when it is much more likely chance for a successful intervention?

Again, the question is do we go and take out all dictatorships 'which are feasible'. There are a ton out there. Which do we decide first? What, the ones which have Sharia law? That'd go far to convincing Muslims that the War on Terror isn't simply a War on Islam. You have to be smart about it. Look at Iraq, it takes a LOT of work to supplant a dictatorship with a functioning democracy (which I assume to be the goal). We can't go around willy nilly doing it without being totally prepared for the aftermath.

	14-06-2004 23:44									#67
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Who said anything about going about it "nilly-willy?"

Who said anything about changing the entire world overnight?

	14-06-2004 23:49									#68
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Anyone just saying "oh, we should invade".

	14-06-2004 23:50									#69
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So answer me this... why Nigeria? When there are plenty of other areas much worse.

	14-06-2004 23:51									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So answer me this... why Nigeria? When there are plenty of other areas much worse.

Political agendas, political interests -- you know how ulterior motives and interests get in the way.

	14-06-2004 23:53									#71
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I would like to keep humanitarian intervention against genocide seperate from democracy promotion. The former while still controversial, is accepted by many as a point of international law. The latter, as motive by itself for regime change, is not going anywhere anytime soon. This does not mean the US and others cant concern themselves with democracy promotion, or that there isnt a concern with, say, the issues of sharia in Nigeria - but theres no prospect of intervention by force solely on that basis.

But genocide, is , fortunately, fairly rare. Even there it may not be possible to establish a universal standard of intervention - but we can go far in that direction, and should.

	15-06-2004 00:01									#72
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quote: Because they are doing such a bang up job in the Congo loosing control of whole cities?

I seem to recall a couple cities we'd lost control of in our current adventure, and we've (including the rest of the coalition) had over 150,000 troops in the country.

	15-06-2004 00:23									#73
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quote: Political agendas, political interests -- you know how ulterior motives and interests get in the way.

If that were the case, then Nigeria would be far down on the list, where it is now.

	15-06-2004 00:26									#74
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There are always exceptions to the rule -- sometimes we value human life more than material resources but that is usually not the case.

	15-06-2004 00:26									#75
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more infor on legal status, from interview with Powell.

also some clarification in numbers -200,000 in Chad, 1 million internally displaced.

Also some evidence govt of Sudan is responding, in limited ways, to international concerns.http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?...ctCountry=SUDAN

	15-06-2004 00:54									#76
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How about we stop the usual handwringing and gameplaying that accompanies this type of situation, and tell the government and militias that they have two choices - disarm or be killed.

Otherwise, like so many places where the rest of the world did nothing more than handwringing, this just rates the flavor of the month for murderous shitholes you're glad you weren't born in.

	15-06-2004 00:56									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Because they are doing such a bang up job in the Congo loosing control of whole cities? I seem to recall a couple cities we'd lost control of in our current adventure, and we've (including the rest of the coalition) had over 150,000 troops in the country.

We didn't "lose control" - we relaxed our grip so as to minimize the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would result if we decided to seriously exercise control.

	15-06-2004 00:58									#78
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I take it, then, that you think I'm out of my ****ing mind on this one, MtG?

-Arrian

	15-06-2004 01:04									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I take it, then, that you think I'm out of my ****ing mind on this one, MtG? -Arrian

Since the murdering thug Sudanese want the non-murdering thug Sudanese gone, we'd just be encouraging them and everyone else. Where would we draw the line? There are a lot of ignorant, nasty ethnic and tribal groups around the globe who'd like to be rid of somebody to grab their territory or just to be rid of them.

However, if we slaughtered enough murdering thugs in the name of a modern Pax Americanum, that would start to have some sort of effect pour encourager les autres.

Half the time we act like we're entitled to be an empire, so let's just stop ****ing around and do it.

	15-06-2004 01:06									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How about we stop the usual handwringing and gameplaying that accompanies this type of situation, and tell the government and militias that they have two choices - disarm or be killed. Otherwise, like so many places where the rest of the world did nothing more than handwringing, this just rates the flavor of the month for murderous shitholes you're glad you weren't born in.

because there are too many pussies both here and in Europe to issue an ultimatum like that. "the peace of the plenty, or the peace of death.", roughly paraphrased from a movie. You ready to flaten a couple of cities to stop them?

	15-06-2004 01:06									#81
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ok, look, some of us may write to our representatives and call for UN intervention - some may call for use of the US military - some may call for threats of intervention first, and some may call for economic sanctions.


To me all such communications are good. My main fear that our govts will think we dont care, and that the whole thing will be ignored. By communicating, we raise it on the radar screen, and make it more likely SOMETHING will get done.

	15-06-2004 01:07									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Political agendas, political interests -- you know how ulterior motives and interests get in the way. If that were the case, then Nigeria would be far down on the list, where it is now.

Nigeria has oil!

So does Liberia.

	15-06-2004 01:07									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Half the time we act like we're entitled to be an empire, so let's just stop ****ing around and do it.

For me, it's not about Pax-Americana or an empire -- it's about humanitarianism.

	15-06-2004 01:11									#84
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And that's the problem. When has a "humanitarian" mission ever succeeded against murderous thugs who still felt like bothering to be murderous thugs?

Putting bandaids on ever growing piles of bodies until the thugs get bored or run out of ammo or whatever local weed they get stoned on doesn't count. Nor does demonstrating lack of staying power.

	15-06-2004 01:12									#85
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the band-aid approach does not work -- no argument from me there

	15-06-2004 01:12									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha because there are too many pussies both here and in Europe to issue an ultimatum like that. "the peace of the plenty, or the peace of death.", roughly paraphrased from a movie. You ready to flaten a couple of cities to stop them?

Well, the first problem we have to solve is the "too many pussies" problem. As for flattening cities, sure, if that's what it takes.

"Disarm and stay that way, or die" works for me.

	15-06-2004 01:14									#87
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Half the time we act like we're entitled to be an empire, so let's just stop ****ing around and do it.

Aren't we installing a puppet state in an area with lots of oil? Does the Sudan have enough resources to make it worth our while?

	15-06-2004 01:16									#88
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat ? Putting bandaids on ever growing piles of bodies until the thugs get bored or run out of ammo or whatever local weed they get stoned on doesn't count.

If it saves lives, Im for it, even if it only works cause the thugs get bored.

	15-06-2004 01:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If it saves lives, Im for it, even if it only works cause the thugs get bored.

How does being halfassed and not getting in the way of the thugs and letting them do their thing until they get bored "save lives?"

It doesn't. It just takes credit for being around at the moment the thugs figured they'd killed enough people for this go-round.

	15-06-2004 01:26									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Aren't we installing a puppet state in an area with lots of oil? Does the Sudan have enough resources to make it worth our while?

Who knows until we survey it all? Besides, if we just take over Africa, there's enough resources in the good spots that we can justify the dry spots on the law of averages and it simply being easier to wipe out the thugs everywhere.

Do you just exterminate cockroaches in the kitchen and let them wander around at will near the trash can outside the garage?