13-06-2004 08:31									#31
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There must be something people like about the iTMS, given that it's the market leader.

	13-06-2004 08:32									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten There must be something people like about the iTMS, given that it's the market leader.

It has a 30-something odd percent marketshare these days...

	13-06-2004 08:34									#33
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That's still #1, isn't it?

	13-06-2004 08:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten That's still #1, isn't it?

Barely, that was before Walmart's store launched, even.

It went from 90% to 70% to 35.7% in about a year. The trend is kinda steep, and it's not favoring Apple.

	13-06-2004 08:37									#35
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By the way, WMP10 also allows you to buy movies digitally online.

	13-06-2004 08:40									#36
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quote: Barely

I rest my case...

	13-06-2004 08:41									#37
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It was #1 in March barely, my guess is now it's not #1, since its competitors were barely in #2, there were a few of them, and they were growing far faster than iTunes was.

	13-06-2004 08:44									#38
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I'm not really interested in your guesses.

	13-06-2004 08:48									#39
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Why would you be? It's your guess versus mine as to ITMS' marketshare position now, the trend and statistics just side with me.

	13-06-2004 08:54									#40
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I'm stating fact, not guessing. I said the iTMS is the market leader, a position that is determined by the last hard figures on market share available. The latest figures prove my assertion.

Why do you have to argue about everything, even basic facts?

	13-06-2004 09:02									#41
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I'm not arguing that the last hard figures didn't put iTunes as the #1, though, so I would like to know why you have to constantly construct strawmen.

The fact is, iTunes' marketshare is dropping like a rock, and I see no logical reason to see why it wouldn't continue to drop like it has since it launched. Do you?

	13-06-2004 09:06									#42
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Do you have a point? None of this has anything to do with my original statement...

	13-06-2004 09:52									#43
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The one saying it's a "substantive advantage" to allow people to buy music from the ITMS? That's a ridiculous point, is my point.

	13-06-2004 10:06									#44
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Can you play music purchased from the #1 online music seller on your Zen MP3 player? No? That would certainly seem like an advantage for the iPod...

	13-06-2004 10:08									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Can you play music purchased from the #1 online music seller on your Zen MP3 player? No? That would certainly seem like an advantage for the iPod...

Can you play music purchased from 65% of online music sellers on your iPod? No? That would certainly seem like an advantage for the Zen...

	13-06-2004 10:08									#46
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Yes, it would.

	13-06-2004 11:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yes, it would.

And thus, isn't your single substanial advantage for the iPod blown out of the water? Seems to me I can get a Zen player that can access far more vendors and ones that are cheaper to boot.

So, to recap:

Zen:
Superior sound quality (objective)
Longer battery life (objective)
Less expensive (objective)
Greater access to mp3 vendors (objective)
Larger LCD display (objective)

iPod:
Looks better (subjective)

I'm not seeing where the iPod's advantage lays for an intelligent consumer.

	13-06-2004 11:46									#48
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quote: And thus, isn't your single substanial advantage for the iPod blown out of the water?

No. Both MP3 players are compatible with different services. The iPod is compatible with the most popular service, however, while the Zen is not, which would seem like a slight advantage to the iPod. The iTMS is arguably the best service out there and it's place atop the market would seem to support that claim.

You're also leaving out size, which is an objective criteria in the iPod's favor.

	13-06-2004 11:50									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten No. Both MP3 players are compatible with different services. The iPod is compatible with the most popular service, however, while the Zen is not, which would seem like a slight advantage to the iPod.

Any "slight" advantage is immedialy overpowered by the major advantage of having freedom to choose who your online music vendor is, which you can't do with the iPod.

quote: You're also leaving out size, which is an objective criteria in the iPod's favor.

This is true, but the Zens are hardly huge. If size is a concern, they should go for the "Mini" players with the 4GB microdrives.

	13-06-2004 11:53									#50
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What if someone cares about both the size of the MP3 player and the amount of storage available? The iPod is a better choice than the Zen in that situation.

	13-06-2004 11:56									#51
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quote: Any "slight" advantage is immedialy overpowered by the major advantage of having freedom to choose who your online music vendor is, which you can't do with the iPod.

Indeed! With the iPod you are forced into having only one online music vendor. It would be like being forced to use IE if you bought Windows. It is much better to have a choice of vendor.

	13-06-2004 11:59									#52
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I don't think the choice is so clear. Ideally, you would have access to all vendors. However, since you can't, do you choose access to the #1 vendor but not others, or access to the others without access to the #1? That's a tough choice...

	13-06-2004 11:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What if someone cares about both the size of the MP3 player and the amount of storage available? The iPod is a better choice than the Zen in that situation.

Even in this case, the iPod is not substantially smaller. Further, what good is having > 4GB of storage if your battery dies after 7 hours?

	13-06-2004 12:01									#54
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quote: What if someone cares about both the size of the MP3 player and the amount of storage available?

The Zen doesn't look that much bigger than an iPod. As the article posted said slightly bigger and heavier.

	13-06-2004 12:01									#55
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quote: Even in this case, the iPod is not substantially smaller.

It's still smaller...

quote: Further, what good is having > 4GB of storage if your battery dies after 7 hours?

Own goal.

	13-06-2004 12:02									#56
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quote: do you choose access to the #1 vendor but not others, or access to the others without access to the #1?

I'd easily make the choice that provides me with a majority. Other vendors = 65%, so that's the obvious choice.

	13-06-2004 12:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't think the choice is so clear. Ideally, you would have access to all vendors. However, since you can't, do you choose access to the #1 vendor but not others, or access to the others without access to the #1? That's a tough choice...

Not at all. You're deliberatly ignoring that the iTunes Music Store isn't going to be #1. In one year it went from 90% to 35.7% marketshare.

There is NO advantage to having the iTunes Music Store. It's not cheaper, it doesn't offer any better selection. iTunes Music Store locks you into iTunes and iPod, and the Zen and WMA-based music stores offer choice.

Apple is f*cking themselves over, they're using the same stupid business tactics they used when they lost the lead in desktop PCs, and the same thing is happening again. It's amazing to me they can figure out how to turn a profit, even temporarily.

	13-06-2004 12:05									#58
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quote: Apple is f*cking themselves over, they're using the same stupid business tactics they used when they lost the lead in desktop PCs

Yep, it's shocking really. It's like Jobs learned nothing.

	13-06-2004 12:06									#59
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As an owner of a Zen Xtra, I have to give my to creative. One of the best purchases I made (erm rather told my wife to get me for v-day) in the past 6 months. This new one looks awesome, though I wouldn't want to drop down from my 30gb xtra to 20gb. The button control looks like a great improvement, one of my few complaints about the xtra.

	13-06-2004 12:09									#60
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quote: You're deliberatly ignoring that the iTunes Music Store isn't going to be #1.

That's a BAM. Pardon me for ignoring things that aren't actually true...

quote: There is NO advantage to having the iTunes Music Store.

The iTMS has features unique to it that some people like. Just because you don't see them as an advantage doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way. This is just another example of you assuming that your opinions are facts.

quote: it doesn't offer any better selection.

That's a matter of opinion. All the services have different selections to choose from. Which is the best is a matter of taste.