14-06-2004 23:06									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What Iraqi laws did he break? He WAS the law in Iraq, wasn't he?

Only an international court could convict him.

That said, I wouldn't be to formal in this case.

	14-06-2004 23:08									#62
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe If this was directed at me,

It wasn't.

	14-06-2004 23:19									#63
	Inflate your Upload Space

An ordinary sort of legal provision as to a proper period for keeping someone in custody before charging them is 3 days.

That every man should stand equal before the law has been thought an important principle from the very first days that Kings discovered the benefits of being the fount of justice. For reasons that are obvious.

The trouble with allowing Saddam Hussein to be an exception is the self same problem as treating the people in Guantanamo Bay as exceptions. Once you allow an executive to substitute its own sense of what is expedient for a rule of law then you must not expect that just because the executive's sense of what is expedient matches your own in one instance that will always be so.

In fact one of the main reasons the rule of law is valued is because the opposite is true. Those upon whom we confer the power to rule come to have different interests to our own.

When the barons in England extracted from King John a promise not to lock up without trial they did not do so for any merely theoretical reason. They did so because he loved to do exactly that. And he was not alone. Those who ruel have loved to do it from time immemorial.

Just right now, and in some societies, rulers have not done that for quite some time.

Long enough so that Guantanamo and this instance now seem shocking.

But that is because the people in the coutries concerned have believed in a rule of law and have insisted that the powers of the state are exercised subject to that rule.

Just at the moment we are forgetting where all this came from. There is some sort of complacent sense that suspending basic legal provisions does not matter when it is done to combat terrorism.

If you take a look in any history book it is very easy indeed to find huge mountains of human misery which came about directly as a result of rulers acting outside the rule of law or, if initially bound to it, escaping.

Try Hitler's Germany for a recent instance. But the search for instances will just not be challenging.

Now look for instances of human misery caused by terrorism. You will certainly find some. But the two will not be comparable. The one is a major thing - something which has fuelled huge amounts of effort to combat. The other, by comparison, trivial.

Allowing the executive to keep Saddam Hussein in custody uncharged for any period longer than the law allows for no better reason that that he is widely believed to be an evil man is a great mistake.

The Red Cross are absolutely right to draw attention to it.

	14-06-2004 23:58									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If we're going to start acting like the people we replaced, what was the point in replacing them? How do you justify overthrowing someone for violating international law, and then violate international law yourself?

As long as we get the oil, who cares about the rest of the details?

	15-06-2004 00:04									#65
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: What Iraqi laws did he break? He WAS the law in Iraq, wasn't he? Only an international court could convict him. That said, I wouldn't be to formal in this case.

Not being a student of Iraqi law I can not answer. But in light of a rather substantial Iraqi constitution in force (even if ignored) at the time of Saddaam's reign one can imagine their were a number of violations even if Saddaam was the defacto law.

	15-06-2004 00:06									#66
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As long as we get the oil, who cares about the rest of the details?

	15-06-2004 00:28									#67
	Support Apolyton

quote: Not every culture writes the date as month/day/year; some go day/month/year. Yes, it is annoying and strange, but they're not going to be corrected anytime soon.

Even Canada is civilised enough to go day/month/year.

	15-06-2004 01:08									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Says the person who says we should forgo evidence and a trial and just murder the guy.

That was me. It'd be a good way to build up good will with the Kurdish population again.

	15-06-2004 01:58									#69
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Even Canada is civilised enough to go day/month/year.

This is just backwards. Year/Month/Day... that way you can order them numerically and have the timeline preserved. Month/Day/Year is of course just silly.

	15-06-2004 02:02									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If there is a law that a suspect in custody needs to be charged in a certain timeframe... we should do it. Very simple.

We have evidence. Or should. We invaded a whole damn country and deposed it's leader based on this evidence, right? I fail to see how evidence that would warrent war (and the civilian casualties resulting therefrom) would not support a simple conviction against the leader responsible for those infractions.

	15-06-2004 02:04									#71
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It's more fun to decide which mob to throw him to.

	15-06-2004 02:05									#72
	Re: Oh my god... Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I never would've expected this kind of lunacy from the ICRC, but here it is... It's a damn shame, that's all I can say.

Yeah....The US has to bow to international law?!
Don't they know that Saddam was about to nuke New York with his ubersecret uberevil weapons of DOOM?!

	15-06-2004 02:10									#73
	Increase Your PM Length

Tass:

Why doesnt the US understand that there are certain rules to be followed. And if your not going to respect the rules of war and after, who do you expect to do so?

	15-06-2004 02:13									#74
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

But Lauri! Americans are the Superior peoples: Ameryans! They are inheritly better than all other peoples and as such the world peoples should recognise their inferiority and allow the Ameryan people certain privledges It is the least the world can do, considering how the Ameryans even tolerate their existence in the first place.

	15-06-2004 02:16									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Amen! Brother

But seriously. Should the rest of the world just surrender to America?

	15-06-2004 02:16									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

[cynicism]
United States is not bound to any international laws, because it's the most powerful nation on Earth, so it can do whatever it wants, with no fear of repercussions.
[cynicism]

	15-06-2004 02:16									#77
	Suffering from ads?

We don't believe the rules apply to us, collectively and individually. We're entitled. We're priveleged. We're better than everyone else.

	15-06-2004 02:17									#78
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We're the....Ameryans!

America, America above everyone! Above everyone in the world!!!

	15-06-2004 02:20									#79
	Support Apolyton

What are you talking about Tass? You're just a mongrel Russian we only barely tolerate.

	15-06-2004 02:21									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Actually Dino, this is one of the few times Tass makes sence

	15-06-2004 02:22									#81
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're just a mongrel Russian we only barely tolerate.

Mongrel or Mongol?

	15-06-2004 02:24									#82
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

laurentius: He's not worth mentioning our greatness while worshiping his false god Putie-Poo.

	15-06-2004 02:27									#83
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

PATRIOT ALERT!

The terrorist organisation, also known by the lesserpeoples as the "Red Cross" has attempted to defy the will of the Ameryan civilisation by demanding that America, the chosen nation of our lord God, Jesus Christ, and the HOLY GHOST, respect international law!
Clearly we must condemn this with the utmost vigor! Any members of this organisation are clearly not Ameryan, and thus will be shipped to "Fun Camps" located across the nation where they will be allowed to play and have fun until genetic purity can be established

Hail Bush!

	15-06-2004 02:28									#84
	Increase Your PM Length

What did you put in your coffee this morning, Tass?

	15-06-2004 02:28									#85
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Where did you find that god-awful thing, Tass???

	15-06-2004 02:32									#86
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The neutrality of the ICRC is supposed to work both ways. They get access where nobody else does, they keep their traps shut. They serve as a means of communication between prisoners and relatives or similar private parties.

They start trying to pull this crap and the POTUS could theoretically "decertify" the ICRC as a neutral agent.

That would be very bad, but no worse than ICRC becoming another Amnesty Intl.

	15-06-2004 02:33									#87
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Straybow The neutrality of the ICRC is supposed to work both ways. They get access where nobody else does, they keep their traps shut. They serve as a means of communication between prisoners and relatives or similar private parties. They start trying to pull this crap and the POTUS could theoretically "decertify" the ICRC as a neutral agent. That would be very bad, but no worse than ICRC becoming another Amnesty Intl.

Yes. How can the ICRC be neutral when it does not even bow to the Ameryan peoples? We must not only decertify the Red Cross as a neutral agent but put it on the list of terrorist organisations for it is actively seeking to undermine the superior peoples position in this world.

	15-06-2004 02:50									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Historically, the Red Cross does not report anything except tangible physical abuse.

	15-06-2004 05:27									#89
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We don't believe the rules apply to us, collectively and individually. We're entitled. We're priveleged. We're better than everyone else.

Which law abiding President of the United States said this:

"Without law there can be no freedom, only chaos and disorder."


the day after his administration announced it would not recognize the World Court's jurisdiction over the U.S. mining of Nicaraguan harbors (which violated international law), and then proclaimed 1st May as "Law Day USA" ?


American law good.

International law (which has existed in some form or other for several hundred years prior to the founding of the United States) BAD.

Of course, once upon a time, Americans thought differently:

"
Art. 56.

A prisoner of war is subject to no punishment for being a public enemy, nor is any revenge wreaked upon him by the intentional infliction of any suffering, or disgrace, by cruel imprisonment, want of food, by mutilation, death, or any other barbarity.

Art. 67.

The law of nations allows every sovereign government to make war upon another sovereign state, and, therefore, admits of no rules or laws different from those of regular warfare, regarding the treatment of prisoners of war, although they may belong to the army of a government which the captor may consider as a wanton and unjust assailant.

Art. 68.

Modern wars are not internecine wars, in which the killing of the enemy is the object. The destruction of the enemy in modern war, and, indeed, modern war itself, are means to obtain that object of the belligerent which lies beyond the war.

Unnecessary or revengeful destruction of life is not lawful. "

Found those in an American manual.

	15-06-2004 05:45									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: U.S. Said to Give Iraq Saddam in 2 Weeks By FISNIK ABRASHI, Associated Press Writer BAGHDAD, Iraq - The United States will hand over Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and all other detainees to Iraq (news - web sites)'s new government over the next two weeks as sovereignty is restored, the interim prime minister said Monday. U.S. officials have said they plan to continue to hold up to 5,000 prisoners deemed a threat to the coalition even after the restoration of Iraqi sovereignty at the end of this month. They say as many as 1,400 detainees will either be released or transferred to Iraqi authorities. However, in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said Iraqi officials expect to take possession of Saddam and all other detainees with the transfer of power. "All the detainees will be transferred to the Iraqi authorities and the transporting operation will be done within the two coming weeks," Allawi said. "Saddam and the others will be delivered to the Iraqis." He said the former Iraqi president would stand trial "as soon as possible" but gave no specific timeframe. The detainees and "Saddam as well will be handed to the Iraqi government, and you can consider this as an official confirmation," he added. Saddam has been in American custody at an undisclosed location in Iraq since his capture last December near Tikrit. His status has been under discussion as the formal end of the U.S.-led occupation approaches. In Geneva, the spokeswoman of the International Committee of the Red Cross said coalition authorities must file criminal charges against Saddam or let him go when sovereignty is transferred. Under international and military law, prisoners of war and civilian internees are supposed to be freed at the end of the conflict and occupation, unless there are charges against them, Red Cross spokeswoman Nada Doumani said. Saddam was granted prisoner of war status after his capture. Although he is alleged to have committed crimes against his own people, he has not been charged with any offense. "If he is not charged, then the law says that at the end of war, of occupation, he should be released," Doumani told Associated Press Television News. In Geneva, the chief spokeswoman of the international Red Cross, Antonella Notari, said the organization was not calling for Saddam's release but simply stating the rules under international law. "We're not making any ultimatums or calls for release," Notari said. "What we're saying is: Saddam Hussein, as far as we understand today, is a POW, prisoner of war, protected by the third Geneva Convention as all prisoners of war are. "In theory, when a war ends and when an occupation ends, the detaining force has to release prisoners of war or civilian detainees if there are no reasons for holding them," she said. But Notari added that "a prisoner of war who is suspected of having committed a crime must not just be released. Of course, he must be prosecuted, tried, through a legal proceeding." She said it was up to U.S. authorities to decide what they will do about Saddam — whether to charge him, or hand him over to the Iraqis for trial. Although Iraqis will run their own affairs after June 30, tens of thousands of coalition troops will remain in the country to maintain security under a resolution approved unanimously last week by the U.N. Security Council. After the handover of sovereignty, detainees held by the Iraqi authorities will be subject to Iraqi law. Mohammed Rashdan, a Jordanian attorney who claims to represent Saddam, said the Red Cross's stand "violates international and military law." "Under the provisions of international laws and conventions, ICRC should have only called for Saddam Hussein's release," Rashdan told The Associated Press in neighboring Jordan. He accused the Red Cross of serving the United States "in every possible way." "The ICRC should help Saddam's defense lawyers to meet with him — the minimum requirement of the due process in developed nations," Rashdan said.

Question Asked, and Answered!