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Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 15:47
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Oh my god... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I never would've expected this kind of lunacy from the ICRC, but here it is...

quote:
Red Cross ultimatum to US on Saddam

Release him, charge him or break international law, Bush told

Jonathan Steele in Baghdad
Monday June 14, 2004
The Guardian

Saddam Hussein must either be released from custody by June 30 or charged if the US and the new Iraqi government are to conform to international law, the International Committee of the Red Cross said last night.

Nada Doumani, a spokeswoman for the ICRC, told the Guardian: "The United States defines Saddam Hussein as a prisoner of war. At the end of an occupation PoWs have to be released provided they have no penal charges against them."

Her comments came as the international body, the only independent group with access to detainees in US custody, becomes increasingly concerned over the legal limbo in which thousands of people are being held in the run-up to the transfer of power at the end of the month.

The occupation officially ends on June 30 and US forces will be in Iraq at the invitation of its sovereign government.

"There are all these people kept in a legal vacuum. No one should be left not knowing their legal status. Their judicial rights must be assured," Ms Doumani said.

Saddam and other senior officials of the old regime are the only Iraqi detainees to have been given PoW status. Hundreds of other Iraqis have been seized since the war often, according to critics, on flimsy suspicion and held for long periods without charge, usually without their families knowing for weeks where they are.

The ICRC visited the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in early June and found 3,291 detainees, including three women and 22 boys under 18. This was less than half the 6,527 it found in March.

President George Bush has promised to close the prison where US guards indulged in pornographic abuse of prisoners and several groups of releases have taken place since. But many prisoners have been transferred to other prisons.

The ICRC is angry that it has not been given exact figures for releases or the whereabouts of those who are moved from Abu Ghraib and it is hoping the end of the occupation will put pressure on the authorities to clean up their act. "If we consider the occupation ends on June 30, that would mean it's the end of the international armed conflict. This is the legal situation.

"When the conflict ends the prisoners of war should be released according to the Geneva conventions," Ms Doumani said.

She accepted that US and other foreign forces would remain in Iraq.

Whether that meant an occupation continued would be "determined by the situation on the ground". The presence of foreign forces ought to be governed by a legal agreement with the host government.

The ICRC has made at least two visits to the former Iraqi president who is believed to be in a special prison at Baghdad airport.

Around 40 other members of the so-called "pack of cards", Washington's list of high-level members of the former regime, are also there, most in solitary confinement.

Interrogation has been sporadic and none has been charged or allowed visits by their lawyers. A few have had family visits.

They include scientists who were never members of the Ba'ath party, like Dr Amer al Saadi, who was the Iraqi government's liaison with the United Nations' weapons inspectors.

Family members claim they are being deliberately held without trial so as to be punished even in the absence of evidence of wrongdoing.

US lawyers have been helping Iraqis prepare charges against Saddam but officials say they do not expect a trial until next year at the earliest. The US and the Iraqi authorities hope other defendants will first testify against him.

But none has been willing to do so. Whether it is out of loyalty or fear of retribution by Saddam's sympathisers is not clear.

Once charged the former president will be entitled to judicial guarantees including access to a lawyer and the right to prepare a defence.

The US has made clear it will continue to detain some Iraqis after the transfer of sovereignty as part of its security operations.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Stor...1238263,00.html

It's a damn shame, that's all I can say.

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 15:50 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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Why don't they just charge him? Simple enough. It's not like we don't know what to charge him with.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 15:56
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quote:
Why don't they just charge him?


From what I understand, it's been very hard to produce an open-and-shut case on Saddam. He was rather thorough in destroying incriminating documents and issuing orders in such a way that atrocities couldn't be traced back to him conclusively. The man is smart.

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:04
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If they release him, they just have to make sure it happens in the right neighbourhood. Then it shouldn't be a problem.

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:24 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Why don't they just charge him?


From what I understand, it's been very hard to produce an open-and-shut case on Saddam. He was rather thorough in destroying incriminating documents and issuing orders in such a way that atrocities couldn't be traced back to him conclusively. The man is smart.


That's the thing about the legal system. It's not enough to 'know' someone's guilty you have to be able to prove it. Plus, it only says they have to charge him, they don't have to try the case now.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:30
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What's wrong with giving people the time they need to prove it?

axi is offline axi
Prince
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:34
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How about Guantanamo Bay?

Or the about 1000 detainees inide the US, because of 11/9 and the PATRIOT act?

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:37
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Suffering from ads?

He's innocent!

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:39
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quote:
because of 11/9


What the **** is 11/9? How are we supposed to take your posts seriously when you just make up events like this?

VJ is offline VJ
Prince
Helsinki
Dec 2001
time: 07:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:41
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quote:
He was rather thorough in destroying incriminating documents and issuing orders in such a way that atrocities couldn't be traced back to him conclusively.

Personally, I've always been pretty cynical towards the way this is handled in the media: screw the fact that theres no evidence, we know that he personally gassed the kurds and ate their babies, because... he's an evil man?

In tough, long and uncertain wars; soldiers, even whole divisions start making stupid, barbaric decisions contradicting their missions (provided them by army, and ultimately, by the commander-in-chief™) to prove themselves that they're winning the war. It happened in Vietnam, it happened in Croatia, it happened in Tiananmen Sq., it happened in Waco, it has happened in numerous civil wars in the 20th century -- it could've also happened in Iran.

That said, two purely on-topic points:
(1) Why don't they just make up some minor offence, charge him, and then keep him half a year in custody while piling up evidence from his more serius crimes?
(2) Guardian is hardly a reliable source.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:48
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quote:
(1) Why don't they just make up some minor offence, charge him, and then keep him half a year in custody while piling up evidence from his more serius crimes?


Are there such a thing as "minor offenses" when it comes to war crimes? I think ethnic cleansing is as "minor" as it gets...

quote:
(2) Guardian is hardly a reliable source.


How would the Guardian's well-known liberal bias affect the reporting of this particular information, exactly?

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
because of 11/9


What the **** is 11/9? How are we supposed to take your posts seriously when you just make up events like this?


Not every culture writes the date as month/day/year; some go day/month/year. Yes, it is annoying and strange, but they're not going to be corrected anytime soon.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:51
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

9/11 happened in America, so I think it's only proper that the naming should conform to our standards.

CyberShy is offline CyberShy

Emperor
Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:53
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Most sane countries write dd/mm/yy
You guys don't write hh:ss:mm either, do you?

It's from small (day) to large (year) or from large (hour) to small (second)

mixing it all up like, let's start with the month then the day and than the year really makes no sence

And Saddam should be the expection on the rule that everyone deserves a fair trial.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
What's wrong with giving people the time they need to prove it?


So you can hold people indefinitely? That's a life sentence without trial.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 17:25
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Got spare money?

Where did anyone say that you should be able to hold people indefinitely? "Longer than six months" does not equal "forever".

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 17:39 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy

mixing it all up like, let's start with the month then the day and than the year really makes no sence



Well yes -- weird people would think that this does not make any sense.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 17:46
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That's fine. Release him in Halabja and be done with him. Hell dropping him in a major Shite population center would be just as good.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 17:46
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They should just charge him with the easiest case first but leave open the option to tack on more charges later. BTW When exactly was the Nurmingburg trial in relation to the occupation of Germany? As I recall Germany was occupied for something like four years.

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 17:49 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
They should just charge him with the easiest case first but leave open the option to tack on more charges later.


Yep, that's what I think.

You can't just hold someone without charge indefinitely. Even someone as obviously guilty as Saddam.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 17:51
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That's why releasing him is an appealing option. Especially if we do it in one of the proper areas.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 18:07
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I'm pro releasing him to a certain death in a place like Halabja or Basra, but that's most likely against international law, as well. And god knows we better follow the law to the letter when dealing with a genocidal tyrant.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 18:09
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Well we could follow the example set in 'Die Hard With a Vengence' and release Saddam in Compton with a sign saying "I hate niggers" wrapped around his neck.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 18:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well we could follow the example set in 'Die Hard With a Vengence' and release Saddam in Compton with a sign saying "I hate niggers" wrapped around his neck.


It was Harlem and that would only set Saddam off on a thrilling adventure to avert a gold heist of mammoth proportions. What good would that do us?

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 18:13
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Alternatively, release him in Hollywood with a badge saying "Bush 2004".

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 18:22
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quote:
What good would that do us?


He'd avert a gold heist of mammoth proportions .

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 18:24
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****! I didn't think that one through very well, did I?

Tattila the Hun is offline Tattila the Hun
Prince
Tornio
Oct 2002
time: 07:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 18:36
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Heh, knowing Saddam, he'd heist the gold himself...

"What gold? I haven't seen any gold." (In a lousy arab impersonation)

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 20:35
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quote:
Heh, knowing Saddam, he'd heist the gold himself...

"What gold? I haven't seen any gold." (In a lousy arab impersonation)


This is more likely...



"What gold? There is no gold! That is just a lie perpetrated by the evil Americans!"

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 20:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Why don't they just charge him?


From what I understand, it's been very hard to produce an open-and-shut case on Saddam. He was rather thorough in destroying incriminating documents and issuing orders in such a way that atrocities couldn't be traced back to him conclusively. The man is smart.


So, just charge him, then set a date for trial a little ways out, so any necessary evidence can be, er, um, "produced" and make sure the jury is half Kurd and half Shiite.

 
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