20-06-2004 07:17									#181
	Increase Your PM Length

nt

	20-06-2004 13:42									#182
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

"The EU needs to get democratized fast"

	20-06-2004 15:05									#183
	Increase Your PM Length

In the margins of big European topics, Croatia becomes an official candidate for membership

	20-06-2004 16:14									#184
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Are we talking about the same EU? Like they forced themselves to reach and agreement this week when 22 countries where against them?

I meant: "France and Germany force themselves to agree between them two, to make a rock solid coalition of them both"
The French-German unison is not something natural, and there are plenty of things where the French and Germans should disagree, if they weren't united by the willingness to make a solid couple.

quote: Precisely all this discussion about the Niza agreement is about preventing France and Germany from having the power to block any decission unilaterally. It would be needed just two "big" countries (France, Germany, UK and Italy) for it. That´s completely unfair for everyone else.

Same mantra again: that's what we need to strip the member States of the ultimate decision power in the EU, and trust it to a real Parliament.

	20-06-2004 16:15									#185
	Put an end to popups!

Bleh...we never should have allowed all of you in...we should have stuck with Holland and Luxembourg...

	20-06-2004 16:32									#186
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion In the margins of big European topics, Croatia becomes an official candidate for membership

Here's hoping you'll be able to join in 2007, like Romania and Bulgaria

	20-06-2004 16:40									#187
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thanks. The plan is to be ready by then and then the decision when to let us in is on the Union.

I'm against joining, but I'm all for embracing European standards in this corrupt and backward hellhole I luv

And the negotiations will force us to do that, despite strong opposition from entrenched local bureaucratic and political classes. Viva EU!

	20-06-2004 19:47									#188
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Its possible too that the UK would be allowed to join NAFTA.

*looks at map*

still

	20-06-2004 20:24									#189
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Whats putting a whole load of people off the EU in the UK are the following things :-

Mass media that only talks about the negative aspects of the EU / or outright lie's about it.

Mass media that openly gives time to UK haters within Europe, and none to those that quite like the UK (i know many)

Mass media that only ever reports on the French presidents more arrogant and anti-UK comments, and none of the ones that may suggest a more balanced approach (if there is one, we don't know cos it don't get talked about in the media).

The many Europeans who read the UK papers, assume that ALL people in the UK hate the EU, and thefore hate the UK as a result due to the MASS MEDIA ...

If people were forced to take a small test which they had to pass before they could vote on the EU Constitution, which proved they actually knew what they were voting on .. how many of those who hate it, would actually get as far as voting ???

	20-06-2004 20:35									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Reverse those comments Viceroy and "mass media" with "mainstream politicians"...

What riles most people in the UK is the way we are supposed to vote one way or other, as the politicians decree. When we don't vote that way, there is talk about the populace needing to be "taught" how to vote on the EU.

And that last line is again the sort of pretentious intellectualisation of the political process that makes people vote BNP or UKIP in the first place.

	20-06-2004 20:41									#191
	Remove this text

UKIP only got where it did because ??? MASS MEDIA !!

BNP granted did not get any mass media attention, and did very very well in the elections .. so I accept that as some proof.

Of course politicians are telling you what they think !! thats why you elect them, if you don't like them, vote against them, and im sure you do.

This idea that if a politician says what you don't like to hear that somehow he's forcing you to agree with him is crazy !! you still have the choice to accept and reject.

What im saying is, the truth is, people out there really have no idea what the EU is about, and the only people saying anything is the media .. Ive hardly heard any politicians talk about it, never mind telling you what you should or should not think, the main 2 party's have attempted to avoid and fudge the issue as much as they can, because they know full well, there on a hiding to nowhere by the media just before an election ... no political party is going to pick a fight with the mass media at this time.

	20-06-2004 20:43									#192
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If the power was primarily held by the Parliament, things would get voted or rejected quickly. No need to check and balance it ten times, no need to spend humongous amounts of time haggling some favour or other. Much fewer expenditures, much faster process, and one that actually looks like what the Europeans want.

Even reading your post, I'm not quite certain about the political structure of the EU, but to a British-style democracy with an all-powerful legislature.

	20-06-2004 23:09									#193
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Even reading your post, I'm not quite certain about the political structure of the EU

That's the whole point
More seriously, the political structure of the EU is undecided between a confederation of Nation States, and a federal superstate. The agreement, however, is that the EU rests on the shoulders of technocrats.

quote: but to a British-style democracy with an all-powerful legislature.

Well, there are many forms of parliamentary democracy, not all of which are like in Britain.
The problem with the current form of the EU is that the checks and balances are far too many (hence slow and expansive), and they aren't performed by the right people.

Imagine the US being governed by the 50 governors, who haggle with each other. Imagine the House of Representatives is less powerful than those 50 (they're not senators, they're the very governors), and imagine than the president's main role is to promote consensus. You'd have a good idea of what the EU looks like right now.

	20-06-2004 23:17									#194
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

ewww

	20-06-2004 23:20									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That's the whole point More seriously, the political structure of the EU is undecided between a confederation of Nation States, and a federal superstate. The agreement, however, is that the EU rests on the shoulders of technocrats.

I wouldn't call them technocrats, they're bureaucrats. The difference being that a technocrat implies a sense of technical or scientific expertise.

	20-06-2004 23:29									#196
	Increase the size of your Attachments

"UKIP only got where it did because ??? MASS MEDIA !!"

The media does not force people to vote one way or other. If it did, the BNP would get zero votes.

"This idea that if a politician says what you don't like to hear that somehow he's forcing you to agree with him is crazy !! you still have the choice to accept and reject."

Exactly. Ditto with the media, right?

	20-06-2004 23:55									#197
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I wouldn't call them technocrats, they're bureaucrats. The difference being that a technocrat implies a sense of technical or scientific expertise.

There are both technocrats and bureaucrats in the EU. The Commission is extremely important in the European decision process (pretty much every decision is devised by the commission), because they are held as the technical experts. And most often, the commission does indeed produce quality technical projects. Unfortunately, these projects are often far from the reality on ground, and they also hide important political questions in technical jibberish.

BTW, it is a common strategy with tricky political questions. In order to get a consensus on a tricky political question that would otherwise not been obtained, the Council decides to dismiss the question as a technical one, and it will be answered in the great fashion of consensus that is the EU's political culture. This doesn't work for the most spectacular political questions of course, it is all about dicretion.

	21-06-2004 01:45									#198
	Full PM-box? Change here!

"it will be answered in the great fashion of consensus that is the EU's political culture"

Says who?

Consensus is a very shabby from of democracy.

	21-06-2004 01:47									#199
	Put an end to popups!

Yes it is.

It is the current state of affairs however. The EU is all about buiding consensus wherever possible. And you can thank people of your ilk for that.

	21-06-2004 04:50									#200
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

too much bureacracy.

	21-06-2004 05:02									#201
	Tired of ads?

quote: Consensus is a very shabby from of democracy.

Isn't that what democracy is all about???
IE making a decision that is good for - albeit it not perfect - for everyone, instead of being very good for only a few.

	21-06-2004 08:08									#202
	Increase Your PM Length

Romania has fallen far behind...
Bulgaria will probably get in in 2007.

	21-06-2004 16:36									#203
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"Isn't that what democracy is all about??? "

Fudging an agreement that no-one really likes anyway?

	21-06-2004 16:40									#204
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It's all about compromise IMO.

	21-06-2004 16:42									#205
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

But you have to understand that if your country doesn't have this "consensus" thing going on, being involved in the EU where it apparently does, the change in slant makes it seems as if we are being asked/forced to give things up we really don't want to.The EU gets more from the UK than we get from it. It gets an economically coherent philosophy rather than French market-ignorance, and a boot in the right direction.