15-06-2004 19:34									#1
	Is the EU going to dissolve to a simple free trade area? Increase Your PM Length

After the latest bout of elections, what does everyone think? The press are acting like the turnout was high in the UK..yet it was still less than half. Lower in most other countries too..

Without the EU it's not like we're going to return to war.

And we can keep the essential part of it, the free trade. Everything else is just a waste of money and bureaucracy.

	15-06-2004 19:44									#2
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There is nothing in recent history that suggests the EU will be dumbed down as a Free Trade area. At the contrary, its competences have been expanded every time they have been reassessed. The elections don't change anything about it.

So far, the question is mainly whether there will be a two-tier EU, with some countries integrating politically while others do not, or a one tier EU, in which every country follows the same evolution, which will be slower or even stagnating.

	15-06-2004 19:51									#3
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"There is nothing in recent history that suggests the EU will be dumbed down as a Free Trade area."

What's dumb is the forcing through of layers upon layers of integration that the public don't want.

"At the contrary, its competences have been expanded every time they have been reassessed. The elections don't change anything about it."

Elections will change it. They have to unless it's anti-democratic.

"or a one tier EU, in which every country follows the same evolution, which will be slower or even stagnating."

There is no need for further integration. We are better just reverting back to the free trade area. That is the only thing that benefits each nation.

Then we can regain sovereignty and regain control of issues such as asylum. Britain can also get a few billion pounds back to help our public services rather than paying inefficient French farmers.

	15-06-2004 20:00									#4
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Why do you dislike the EU?

	15-06-2004 20:04									#5
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"Why do you dislike the EU?"

Because I like Europe.

	15-06-2004 20:07									#6
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No.

	15-06-2004 20:08									#7
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Even if the eurosceptics got the majority of the seats in the EP they wouldn't be able to change the structure of the EU. That's for the national governments to decide.

	15-06-2004 20:11									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "At the contrary, its competences have been expanded every time they have been reassessed. The elections don't change anything about it." Elections will change it. They have to unless it's anti-democratic.

1. The elections have shown more support for Euro-supporters than for Eurosceptics. Sure, only among those that have voted, but there are many different interpretations for the abstentionists' behaviour, and nobody can say "the abstentionists want this or that". We're stuck with the actual voters.

2. The EU is antidemocratic. And this is precisely because of the lack of political integration that we're stuck with a hellish bureaucracy that is unaccountable to the population.
The MEPs will have no say on the direction taken by the EU until this power is given to them. Surprisingly enough ( ), it is the lovers of national sovereignity that make it impossible for the European Parliament to have such power.
Thus, voting for the UKIP in European elections is only useful in voicing an opinion, not in trying to weigh on the decisions. If you are serious about changing the EU, you have to vote UKIP / BNP in the next general elections.

quote: "or a one tier EU, in which every country follows the same evolution, which will be slower or even stagnating." There is no need for further integration. We are better just reverting back to the free trade area. That is the only thing that benefits each nation.

The common trade policy (i.e the fact that individual member states have no sovereignitiy whatsoever on their trade policy, which is decided at Brussels) has considerably benefited the EU, since the US now has a univocal equal in trade bargainings. Thanks to this, we don't sacrifice our trade interests to the US.
And if we are to give up some sovereignity to the EU, for the sake of efficiency (as the common trade policy so clearly illustrates), the EU in its form will remain.

Actually, the main debate among EU scholars is whether the benefits of further integration (which mostly concern the efficiency of decision making, and the democratic legitimacy of the EU) outweight the resistances offered by the sovereignity-groupies or not.
Basically, the "spill over" effect (the effect in which further integration was only natural) is finished, and we are now in the tricky part where further integration will be more efficient, but won't look as natural to politicians and public opinions.

Then we can regain sovereignty and regain control of issues such as asylum. Britain can also get a few billion pounds back to help our public services rather than paying inefficient French farmers. [/QUOTE]

	15-06-2004 20:13									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Why do you dislike the EU?" Because I like Europe.

	15-06-2004 20:17									#10
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This is stupid

	15-06-2004 20:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor 2. The EU is antidemocratic. And this is precisely because of the lack of political integration that we're stuck with a hellish bureaucracy that is unaccountable to the population. The MEPs will have no say on the direction taken by the EU until this power is given to them. Surprisingly enough ( ), it is the lovers of national sovereignity that make it impossible for the European Parliament to have such power.

It isn't that surprising... They don't want the EP to become more powerful because it doesn't represent the memberstates. I guess you can't love both national sovereignty and a supranational institution. Or maybe you can, but only when it comes to free trade

	15-06-2004 20:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Why do you dislike the EU?

There are whole books written about this, whaleboy.

	15-06-2004 20:45									#13
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I like the EU on principle more than anything else. In practice its awful, especially the fact that something like 50% of its budget (that comes from taxpayers) goes on subsidising farmers to produce expensive crops that we could get from the third world, instead the latter starves .

Nonetheless, the basic idea is good, and I hope that once they get rid of the stupid CAP, the red tape etc, it will lead to a federal European state. That would be so cool!!

EDIT: Typo... CAP, thanks Oerdin

	15-06-2004 20:48									#14
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I believe you are talking about the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). I don't know what CEP is.

The British and to a lesser extent the Germans have been pushing for major changes in CAP for a while but this is only because they have to foot the bill for the lavish subsidies French Farmers gobble up. I doubt there will be any change any time soon though because the way the EU is structured Franch citizens essentially have votes that are worth more then German or British citizens. Each of the big countries get equal numbers of votes but the French have fewer citizens.

Last edited by Oerdin on 15-06-2004 at 20:55

	15-06-2004 20:52									#15
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Its probably the most idiotic of all schemes I've ever seen. Taxpayers pay farmers to produce food that we could import from people at a fraction of the cost. Those people are starving because of the political clout that a few thousand people, who would cope if their industry collapsed, as opposed to entire communities and peoples that have no money, no social security safety net and no jobs to fall back on if theirs falls through. The injustice the CAP perpetuates is frankly offensive.

	15-06-2004 20:54									#16
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you hardly even notice that there is elections going on in here. But that's because we don't know crap about EU except that we belong to it and they make some decisions for us.

No one knows what becomes of it, except that old french dude whose utopia this is. THey know what happens and German leaders who are in conspiracy knows what happens. MAYBE Belgium's conspiracy leaders as well. Baltics, Finland, Sweden (I think), eastern and southern parts of Europe don't know **** about what's happening.

It's like they're trying to keep things in secret at least here in Finland. You have to go to internet to see what EU is. And what it is in Finland, no one here knows. We got this euro money, naturally everyone agreed to it as it was promised to mean lower prices especially in food but ... the exact opposite happened

We deserve every stick in our butt we can get. We never learn.

	15-06-2004 20:59									#17
	Re: Is the EU going to dissolve to a simple free trade area? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue After the latest bout of elections, what does everyone think? The press are acting like the turnout was high in the UK..yet it was still less than half. Lower in most other countries too..

That's not unique to European elections though. Local council and assembly elections do little to better that, and I think those elections provide for a better comparison than general elections which predictably attract a higher turnout.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Without the EU it's not like we're going to return to war.

I agree that many times I've heard the argument that the EU is a force for peace and stability, but I'm not entirely convinced. I think it's fair to say the EU does improve diplomatic relations, but in this day and age, EU or no EU, the threat of Europe erupting into war is minimal (or non-existent).

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue And we can keep the essential part of it, the free trade. Everything else is just a waste of money and bureaucracy.

I don't agree that everything else is a waste of money. Undoubtedly free trade is the EU's best asset but I do believe that some degree of economic co-operation can benefit Europe as a whole. I'm thinking of schemes that help regenerate and develop the poorer regions and nations, and not policies such as CAP or subsidisation of tobacco farmers. Admittedly, there are plenty of such policies that need to be removed, but I don't think that requires recreating the EU as a free trade zone and nothing but.

	15-06-2004 21:01									#18
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In the long run a common currency will help efficiency and increase cross member trade. The short term the sellers will take advantage of the buyers who are unfamiliar with the new money by raising prices.

	15-06-2004 21:03									#19
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That hasn't happened in the euro-zone to my knowledge, nor did it happen very much when the UK switched to decimal. I may be wrong.

	15-06-2004 21:05									#20
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Well, there were a lot of complaints about higher prizes during the first months after we got the Euro here in Germany, but now it has normalized....

	15-06-2004 21:06									#21
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Oerdin, that's positive thinking. Prices in here have once again gone higher permanently. EVERYONE has done the same. It has got nothing to do with unfamiliar with the new money. Everyone does it. It's not like you have a choice. Whaleboy if you mean the increasing in prices, in here it has happened. Everyone rounded up the totals, but when it's in euros, the actualy rounding up is much higher. No one rounded lower, or the same.

For example, if you sell let's say ice cream and it used to cost 10fim, it's now 2 euros, that equals 12fim. It's the same with everything.

	15-06-2004 21:07									#22
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Oh, and going back to a simple trade union will not happen, rather we will see a two speed EU.

	15-06-2004 21:10									#23
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About every promise that was made to us when they were campagning to JOIN the EU.. for votes.. virtually every promise has been broken and the result has been the opposite.

It's not the fact that some of these things has happened that makes me angry, it's the fact that these ****ing EU freaks when we weren't in EU were so extatic about all these things that most knew was BS. Turned out they were wrong. Of course it's only suiting that there is no responsibility of these kind of campagns and 100% lies even when it means very much to our country and lots of changes. They are criminals IMO and should be whipped for being lying traitors. They should have come clean and say what it means, to have fair voting.

	15-06-2004 21:11									#24
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What did they promise? That Finland conquers Russia?

	15-06-2004 21:20									#25
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The voting should be completely proportional to population or if they must they should have a US style bicamrial legislature with a proportional lower house and an upper house were every country gets an equal number of votes. To keep things fair you'd need rules which say all bills must originate in the lower house then proceed to the upper house or something like that.

Also the constitution should describe the EU in its final form. There should be no more of "this will work for a few years then we'll changed everything again" stuff.

	15-06-2004 21:24									#26
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with euro better prices -> opposite.
better employment situations -> it's the same.
great chance to influence -> yeah right staying outside would have meant more influence.
great subsisides -> yeah, outside Finland.
great chance to build up defense -> yeah, left outside the core and no questions asked -> no deal (:b
be bigger part in Europe -> hmm??? difference to previous situation?
great chance to finally bring us to the map -> difference to previous situation?
ultimately better salaries etc because of the better chances businesses get -> reality: opposite.
lower taxes -> YEAH! didn't happen. I bet many people voted because of this.
eradiction of few draconian taxes inside Europe for example bringing cars to Finland as we have very high prices it's ridicolous, inside EU we should be able to bring cars, righ? -> Nope.
And tons of other hints and indications.. People who thought they wouldn't happen were called ultimate pessimist and stuck up hicks. Looks like the stuck up hicks were right after all.

Other promises included that we would not even think of any common constitutions or other laws. Turned out to be BS.

It also started with 'we don't give up our currency'. Turned out to be BS.

Actually now that I think of it, the pro EU freaks pulled out all their pro claims out of their asses.

This naturally offends TRUE EUROS, because they don't like when they're reminded that none of the big promises happened, and were the reason why majority voted YES.

Furthmore there are only indications of things getting worse. Like the fact that few countries didn't have to pay the fine for braking the rules, where as other countries have paid and make no mistake they did not have the chance to just not pay it.

Also, why some other countries gets discounts on the membership? Some pay only 2/3 of the price. The money that's missing is paid by other countries who already pay their full admission. That's BS and you can have word plays and try to justify with what ever, but that's BS right there and I call on it.

	15-06-2004 21:24									#27
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Yeah, but that is the problem - there isn't a consensus what this final form should be, so we cannot write this into the constitution for the time being.

	15-06-2004 21:39									#28
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But I should remind I'm not anti-EU. I just think that... well and if someone is to blame, it's not EU, it's ourselves. We don't make the best of it. Negotiations? We just submit like little puppies. Our negotiators are usually huge pussies that are ready to pay the party and apologize for being there. We have shown huge amounts of political weakness inside EU and we are easily bullied.

	15-06-2004 21:57									#29
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C'mon Pekka, can you really say that the standard of living hasn't increased faster after joining?

	15-06-2004 22:17									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf It isn't that surprising... They don't want the EP to become more powerful because it doesn't represent the memberstates. I guess you can't love both national sovereignty and a supranational institution. Or maybe you can, but only when it comes to free trade

Well, if the socereignity lovers can come up with a confederal system (i.e one where the sovereignity lies in the nation-states, not in the supranational layer) that is democratic, I'll stopp accusing them of being the main culprits of the antidemocracy at work in the EU.

And it is not necessarily a British trait. The one we have to "thank" the most for the EU's main problems of today is Charles de Gaulle.