18-06-2004 21:18									#121
	Suffering from ads?

PA, you are right, of course.
If UK withdrew from EU, EU would most likely pay UK ~25 billion euros/year (my estimate, may be incorrect) to try to convince you to at least stay in the free trade area

	18-06-2004 21:43									#122
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http://www.korbel.com/

The website of Korbel California Champagne.

	18-06-2004 22:01									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And Ted should know: in NAFTA, the Mexicans are sooooo free of movement

that actually happened before, and it was because of cultivation of moving people over for the Bracero program.

	18-06-2004 22:05									#124
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Park, they will do it(try to keep you out of the free trade zone) because they are petty and stupid. It is evidence enough with their motions in the WTO, threatening a trade war with a partner that they run a 100 billion dollar trade surplus with over domestic tax policy.

	18-06-2004 22:11									#125
	Suffering from ads?

Now turn this upside down and you're right.

	18-06-2004 22:15									#126
	Put an end to popups!

AFAIK, we were never serious with the threat of trade wars. However, we are strong enough now to stop being pushed by the US, and to tell the US "don't go there" (just like the US does with us).

In the end, nobody wants a commercial MAD.

	18-06-2004 22:28									#127
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

explain yourself, are you suggesting that the EU is running a trade deficit with the US?

thats year to date data:
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade...oppartners.html

The trade deficits grew even as the dollar was falling:
http://tradealert.us/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=1057


Are you suggesting that this happened in a bizarro universe?
http://www.ustr.gov/releases/2002/01/02-05.pdf

	18-06-2004 22:31									#128
	Remove this text

I won't click your links because it's a waste of time (so it's yours to waste).

Remove the trade surplus if you want then turn both of your previous post's phrases upside down and you're right.

	18-06-2004 22:33									#129
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EU has won more WTO fights with the US than I care to count and this is because you are too protectionist. Almost socialist. You have problems competing in free markets.

	18-06-2004 22:48									#130
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no, they win because of the fact that there are activist judges on the board who can say that the wto sections regarding anti-dumping,etc don't say what they say.

	18-06-2004 22:49									#131
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If you had clicked on the last link, you would see that it talks about a wto ruling on US tax policy.

	18-06-2004 23:26									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha no, they win because of the fact that there are activist judges on the board who can say that the wto sections regarding anti-dumping,etc don't say what they say.

	18-06-2004 23:39									#133
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/l...19-adp_01_e.htm

another link you won't click. If you did feel like clicking it, make sure to read 4.2.

	18-06-2004 23:41									#134
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would the WTO allow us to put an import duty on troll posts?

	18-06-2004 23:42									#135
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only if hes dumping and not the sole supplier of trolling posts.

	18-06-2004 23:52									#136
	Increase Your PM Length

Crazy as it sounds that is how it works for for non EU countries joining EFTA (European Free Trade Association)

1. You MUST enforece EU directives in many areas of competancy.

2. You do pay billions of Euros in subsidy (it has a fancy name but is essentially a fee for access).

As things currently stand that would also have apply to the UK.

OTOH there is nothing to stop the UK joining the WTO as an independant member. This alone would give us access to substantial free trade areas.

Its possible too that the UK would be allowed to join NAFTA.

<------ Voted UKIP

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Do you seriously believe the French farmers would let you in unless you paid them generously?" It's a free trade area. Therefore there's no need for transfers and stuff like that.

	19-06-2004 00:02									#137
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by IoT Crazy as it sounds that is how it works for for non EU countries joining EFTA (European Free Trade Association) 1. You MUST enforece EU directives in many areas of competancy. 2. You do pay billions of Euros in subsidy (it has a fancy name but is essentially a fee for access). As things currently stand that would also have apply to the UK.

So instead of sitting at the table and helping to make the rules, we'll just have them forced upon us without our input anyway.

quote: OTOH there is nothing to stop the UK joining the WTO as an independant member. This alone would give us access to substantial free trade areas.

So when the big boys such as the USA, the EU, Japan, and the Developing Bloc lead by China and India sit down, the UK will....be serving drinks?

quote: Its possible too that the UK would be allowed to join NAFTA.

Ah yes. Instead of a trading bloc of 25 members of varying economic sizes in which we're one of the biggest, we can be in a bloc of 4 where there's one member so large and rich that can make the rules as it sees fit. I wonder what the UK version of the softwood lumber situation the Canadians have would be.

	19-06-2004 00:16									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Ah yes. Instead of a trading bloc of 25 members of varying economic sizes in which we're one of the biggest, we can be in a bloc of 4 where there's one member so large and rich that can make the rules as it sees fit. I wonder what the UK version of the softwood lumber situation the Canadians have would be.

My understanding is that the rationale for UK staying in EU OR EFTA rather than NAFTA is simply because a much larger percentage of their trade goes to Europe than to North America, and that NEARBY access to the European market is of value to say, Japanese firms,whereas access to North American market wouldnt be valuable, cause UK isnt nearby. Its the flip of why if Quebec leaves Canada, theyd want to be in NAFTA rather than the EU.

	19-06-2004 00:17									#139
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It's the obvious lacking of RESPECT that is wrong all the time. While media started pounding that there has been some agreements made and some preliminary results achieved, our news just reported that we just got the ****ing documents about it FEW MINUTES AGO. THat's it, I guess they just forgot to send the memo to us. Nice to know, I wonder what kind of agreements were made since we were not part of it.

This is the biggest problem I have. We are still treated insignificant. Our money is good, but no one wants to hear our opinion. Or many other small countries either.

The UK has now accused France and Germany of powerhousing today. Uhh,,, lots of Sherlock Holmes's around. THat's exactly what has been happening for years now and is what will happen in the future as well.

Not only did we not get the memo, the memo is made by the powerhousers.

We (Finland) tried to raise the level of the voting when things are accepted from 55% to 58% when it comes to countries. Meaning you have to have 58% of votes to get things done and 65% of the whole population.. simple thing that for once we wanted. Denied.

It's very simple though. These plans are made well beforehand, and are forced down to our throats. And UK leaders have woke up to this and threw some words, which are WELL deserved.

You call it politics, I call it BS.

	19-06-2004 00:20									#140
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My understanding is that the rationale for UK staying in EU OR EFTA rather than NAFTA is simply because a much larger percentage of their trade goes to Europe than to North America, and that NEARBY access to the European market is of value to say, Japanese firms,whereas access to North American market wouldnt be valuable, cause UK isnt nearby. Its the flip of why if Quebec leaves Canada, theyd want to be in NAFTA rather than the EU.

There's all that too but my gut instinct says when you're in a ring (or negotiating table) it's better to have your opponent be roughly the same size as you instead of a 300 pound gorilla.

	19-06-2004 00:36									#141
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Pekka:
Most small countries expressed the same concern as Finland. As a concession to small countries, they'll now be even more overrepresented at the European Parliament than they already are.

Of course, this means the big countries value more the council (where the 58% rule has been denied) than the Parliament, and that the Parliament won't be the real place of power anytime soon

	19-06-2004 00:39									#142
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The real power is not in the hands of small countries, and if you believe it is, then you're just being fed propaganda of the TRUE EURO-let's-rule-the-europe-with-iron-fist movement.

Like said, we don't even get the respect to get the freaking documents when these things are being negotiated. It tells quite much about the whole atmosphere. And it's not the first time these kind of signs of total lack of respect has happened.

Next time we are lucky to have a seat reserved for us in the table. Or our country's name spelled correctly. I bet the interpreters just say when our guys speak 'blaablaablaablaablaablaa.. yeah that's it'.

	19-06-2004 00:45									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka The real power is not in the hands of small countries, and if you believe it is, then you're just being fed propaganda of the TRUE EURO-let's-rule-the-europe-with-iron-fist movement.

Where did I say the true power was in the hads of small countries? I said there was a concession that has been made, making the small countries even more overrepresented at the EP than they already are (did you know there are as many MEPs for the 5 millions Finns as for the 10 millions Parisians?).
And I said just after that, that it hints the Europarliament won't have true power anytime soon, because the big countries won't leave the power to an institution in which they are weak.

	19-06-2004 00:49									#144
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok you didn't claim that, my bad. But it doesn't really matter. We could have 1000 representors and it wouldn't make any difference. They'd be all ignored like they are now.

Yes there are more of them for 5 million people of one country than 10 million of one major city. Other way around it wouldn't even be an outrage, it couldn't be even described in words.

	19-06-2004 00:50									#145
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What? That my vote is worth twice less as yours is not only perfectly normal, but it would even be worse than an outrage if my vote was worth as much as yours?

	19-06-2004 00:51									#146
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My vote for what? We don't vote anything EU related. You actually get to vote?

	19-06-2004 00:53									#147
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You know, those little EU elections we had 5 days ago...

Edit: and when you vote for a government, you vote for a way to handle the EU too (in the Council, where individual governments haggle). In the Council, Germany has 0.35 votes per million inhabitants. Malta has more than 8. Meaning that one Maltese is about 24 times more powerful than one German in EU matters.

	19-06-2004 00:56									#148
	Inflate your Upload Space

oh yeah you mean EU elections. You really want to even debate about that issue?

On the other hand you admit that they don't have the power, and you counter it with 'my vote is not as worthy as yours?'.

Try harder.

I'm going to see the rest of the Sweden-Italy. At least that makes some sense .

	19-06-2004 01:00									#149
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What? That my vote is worth twice less as yours is not only perfectly normal, but it would even be worse than an outrage if my vote was worth as much as yours?

if you start with the assumption that y'all are all citizens of one state, and therefore you should all be equal as citizens, then Finns are overrepresented. If you start with the assumption that the EU is an organization of sovereign states, than Finland may underrepresented compared to a sovereign state like France.

Seems like the problem isnt so much voting formulas, as that y'all havent got this basic concept agreed upon yet.

I'd suggest y'all try to work it out BEFORE you try to have a Constitution and all. POTM has agreed that for fathers day shed like to join in day trip to a civil war battlefield. Im thinking Chancelorsville, which ive never seen, though she and QOTM havent seen the full Fredericksburg battlefield. Just cause youre in a single political unit is no guarantee of peace.

	19-06-2004 01:06									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka oh yeah you mean EU elections. You really want to even debate about that issue? On the other hand you admit that they don't have the power, and you counter it with 'my vote is not as worthy as yours?'.

I just want to show you even a Frenchman has good reasons to whine about how his political power gets ripped off by the others.

Think about it: we are vastly underrepresented, we have to cope with competition policies and trade policies that are completely opposite to our ways, we are dismantling our traditional public services and welfare, part of the English growth comes from what they leech off the continent, we pay more for the EU than we get back, Spanish farmers put our own farmers on the dole, plenty of our factories will go in Eastern Europe, putting many of our workers on the dole, etc.

Every country has tons of things to complain for. And every country benefits from the EU in ways that are so obvious to the inhabitants, they don't even know it is difficult to defend abroad.

There is ONE thing to which France clings, and it is the CAP. It ruins our whole bargaining power for the rest, because we give concessions to everybody in order to keep the CAP afloat.
We conceded opening the energy market, and raising retirement age (both absolute horrors here) just to keep the CAP. In the future, we will concede many other things we hate, just to keep the CAP. If I was the French pres, I would have ditched the CAP a long time ago, only in order to achieve something in Europe.

Unfortunately, I'm not the French pres, and we end up having an ass who is as arrogant as Bush, but who has no bargaining teeth