24-06-2004 06:50									#1
	Summer Term: AU 601 - Introduction to Multiplayer Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was thinking we could try something different for the next AU course, perhaps even in parallel with the 500 series of courses. So what about a course designed to introduce us to multiplayer strategy?

There are many strategy differences between MP and SP due to the fact that in MP you have to interact with other humans, who are much more unpredictable than the AI. Due to this unpredictability, strategy is much less clear-cut in MP than it is in SP. Some games are decided by a one-dimensional strategy of who will first get the largest SoD of swordsmen, while other games involve countless hours of diplomacy and planning well into the modern age.

The easiest way to transition between single player and multiplayer is PBEM (play by e-mail), with two humans and several AI. In the upcoming AU course, as an introduction to multiplayer, I propose to focus on one aspect of MP: how to manipulate the AI when there is another human trying to do the same thing!

Here is a format that might be interesting:

• All players will be divided into pairs. Each pair will play a PBEM game on a standard pangaea map with six AI. For comparison purposes, all games will be played on the same map, with the same civilizations.
  
• Human players will agree not to attack any city that has not been founded by their own civilization, unless that city belongs to the other human. Also, they may not take control of such cities by any other means (peace negotiations, culture flips). Since the human players will not be neighbors, early rushes are ruled out.
  
• Instead, both players will concentrate in the early game on manipulating the AI to their advantage. Can you bribe the AI to attack your human opponent? Can you be the first one to make a profit from trading?
  
• Leter in the game, we are likely to have a military showdown between human players, but the AI will still play a role. Can you convince the AI to vote for you in the UN elections? Can you secure the resources needed for a spaceship launch by trading with the AI, or will the other human beat you to it?
  
• Each player will have a DAR thread dedicated to himself, where he is the only one to post the progress of his game. Each player may update his thread with screenshots, saves, and even ask advice from members of the AU community. Neutral observers will be able to follow the games, compare them, and comment in a special spoiler thread. It goes without saying that players should not peek in other threads until their game is finished, and neutral observers should not give out spoilers in ongoing game threads.
  

Last edited by alexman on 26-06-2004 at 06:27

	24-06-2004 08:32									#2
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I think this is a great idea, alexman. I guess it's time to ressurrect the Multiplayer AU Mod thread

	24-06-2004 13:57									#3
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While this has some appeal, my biggest question is time.

Roughly how long does it take to play PBEM in real life?

	24-06-2004 15:07									#4
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Since I'm now playing more PBEM than SP, I think it's a great idea personally. The only drawback is the length of time taken to play PBEM games, and so those AU members who do not play much or any PBEM may lose interest fairly quickly or not participate at all.

But putting that aside, there's no doubt that the format proposed by Alexman of only 2 human players will help speed things along if both are committed. Having up to 6 AI will also give the game more of a SP feel anyway, so that's probably a good idea.

However, if the lesson to be learned is MP strategy, preventing a human from capturing another human's cities will restrict the potential for success considerably, IMHO, so I would suggest not to use such restrictions. It then becomes a matter of whether you want to team up a PBEM player with a novice for strategy lessons, or whether you want to try to match the skills of players as much as possible.

Strollen: My fastest 4-human game is going at around 1.5 turns per day, so in 2 months we are up to about turn 90, or 750BC. A 2-player game can easily average 2 or 3 turns per day or even more if you put in a few sharp sessions.

So yes, great idea as usual Alexman, though I'm a little concerned about what the participation rate might be.

	24-06-2004 16:51									#5
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ok, I'll play, but being GMT I may have problems finding a partner. But we need to be careful on coosing civs. either both are expansionist, or neither are. Maybe Greece, and Korea? Also, it is possible to get cities in peace treaties, if you kill enough units. I think that that should be disallowed, because it effectively breaks the rule anyway.


And Strollen, if you get a good match, you can easily get about 30'40 turns a week in. I've done 20 in one day (so 60 rounds, since their are 3 players).

	24-06-2004 18:02									#6
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The idea to not attack foreign cities was so that:

1) There is less direct competition between the players, and more interaction with the AI, to ease the transition from SP to MP.

2) To avoid the situation where one warmongering player gobbles up all the AI and the other player can only watch as he lacks the resources to compete.

But perhaps we should allow attacking the other human player's cities. Would people who have not played MP feel uncomfortable with that?

	24-06-2004 19:04									#7
	Re: Summer Term: AU 601 - Introduction to Multiplayer Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Nice idea.

quote: Originally posted by alexman Human players will agree not to attack any city that has not been founded by their own civilization. This includes cities of the other human player. Early rushes and wars of aggression are therefore ruled out. You can launch attacks and raids against units in enemy territory if you wish, as long as you don’t attack any cities.

How about if this rules expires at some later point in the game (say, somewhere in late Medieval)? I understand the idea is to manipulate the AIs, but it would also be fun to have a showdown between the human players.

	24-06-2004 20:10									#8
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If we're using a man-made map, which I would think would be good, start the human players on opposite sides of the world, with the AI between them, so each has ample time to become "settled" before they finally meet. This will also prevent the two humans from massively colluding early on and gaining too large an advantage over the poor AI. Dom's idea of setting a no-attack until X might be good also. Just forbid Ancient age wars between the humans?

	24-06-2004 21:01									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think you at least need to allow humans to attack other humans - otherwise it won't feel like PBEM. The big strategy differences between SP and MP are largely about military strategy and defending your cities adequately, and learning to cope without the other goodies for longer.

Perhaps a restriction on the ability to capture AI cities or take them in peace deals may help....though at higher levels where the AI REX's like crazy, this may make it rather difficult.

	24-06-2004 21:13									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK, so no attacking or otherwise gaining control of AI-founded cities. No other restrictions, but the mapmaker should make it so that there is at least one AI civ between human players. I think this would work well.

It would be up to each pair to decide the difficulty level of their game.

	24-06-2004 23:05									#11
	Re: Summer Term: AU 601 - Introduction to Multiplayer Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by alexman I was thinking we could try something different for the next AU course, perhaps even in parallel with the 500 series of courses.

I really hope this is done PARALLEL

As a member of the SLRLTBSAUFC (severely limited RL time but still an AU fan club) I have to voice concern about starting a course that excludes so many members of the AU community.

Making the same map available for SP would be enough to elleviate my fears. DARs could be split into SP and MP. It may even be interesting to compare the progress of SP vs MP games.

If this plan has any support I would also recommend calling the courses 504 and 604.

	24-06-2004 23:12									#12
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That's a good idea!

I have to say, though, that PBEM games place much less of a strain on your RL than SP, which is the reason they take so long to finish!

	24-06-2004 23:21									#13
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I'll Play - But a warning, I have never played an MP game before. - (But I'm competing/winning ok at Emp. in SP, and surviving at Demi-God) - I'm a builder/democratic warmonger late in the game.
This AU course seems right up my alley.

Kevin

	25-06-2004 06:42									#14
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So I think the five people that have voted that they are playing are kwpulliam1973, Aqualung71, Krill, alexman and either Dominae or ZargonX (they both seem to like the idea but didn't say they're playing for sure).

Anyone else?

3 games are enough to start the course, but are there any volunteers to create the map?

	25-06-2004 08:53									#15
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Of course I'm playing I have my panelistic duties to uphold, don't I?

	25-06-2004 16:50									#16
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I will gladly play. Please don't pair me up with a too strong opponent

	25-06-2004 18:06									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm game. This was discussed a few months ago and seemed like the best idea to achieve a good early game with an interesting end game, presumably against the human player, but in my game my opponent may have to deal with the ai that killed me

By the way, I recommend you divide the players into groups according to the number of turns they are able to play per day. If there are people that can play at work and want to do a lot of high-speed turns, they should be paired together, IMO.

Last edited by jshelr on 25-06-2004 at 18:14

	25-06-2004 18:25									#18
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I like the that last paragraph

Since I'm GMT, I can play with others in GMT, and I can play from 16:00 until 00:00 GMT, unlimited turns, but I'm unavailable at the weekends, except in winter.

Current players: (alphabetical order)

alexman
Aqualung71
jshelr
krill
kwpulliam1973
Tarquinius
Zargonx

we need another player, and a map maker. Any volenteers, or should I try to get someone to do it?

I've written a news article on this, and I can edit it to ask for a map maker, if you want me to.

Last edited by Krill on 25-06-2004 at 18:32

	25-06-2004 21:54									#19
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Krill

all sounds good.

Also, advertise in pbem games that are going well

	25-06-2004 22:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Interested? Register here, stating: The times you can play your turns. How many turns per day you hope to play. Any time periods of planned vacation when you won’t be around Whether you prefer stock or AU mod. The diffculty level you wish to play.

1. Multiple turns from 8 AM - 6 PM EDT, and one turn between 6 PM and 10 PM.
   
2. At least 3, hopefully as many as 20
   
3. None until late September (two weeks planned then).
   
4. AU mod
   
5. Demigod
   

	25-06-2004 22:31									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

He, he...... I refuse to be banged around by Alexman in another PBEM game. Otherwise,

1. Multiple turns from 7 AM - 6 PM EDT, and sometimes in the evening.

2. Lots of turns, if not playing golf, which is once a week max. (I belong to golfers version of AA)

3. Vacation -- where jshelr goes so goes his computer, although there is a week in Italy in mid October where they probably don't have "proper" electricity

4. AU mod

5. Demigod but iff the spacing on the map between civs is wide enough so there is not a city stuffed in my face on turn 5. Emperor is also ok if it makes a match with another player easier.

I would like to play with a crazy person who wants to finish the whole game in a month, or at least get to the industrial era where turns get longer in a short period of time.

	25-06-2004 22:38									#22
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Just throwing out a lazy man's idea: what if we use Marla's world map -- is there a better one? Then we pick two human civs far from each other, but presumably in the "old world."

	25-06-2004 23:10									#23
	Put an end to popups!

Hmmmm.....before we get too far into this, are we trying to educate new members, and players new to PBEM, and ourselves......or essentially just setting up some fun PBEM games?

	25-06-2004 23:13									#24
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I think the idea is to be educational. Many of us play PBEMs or MP all the time, but many people do not. This is meant as a gentle easing into the multiplayer world.

That said, I am generally available to play everyday outside of work hours 8-6 EST. I will occasionally be gone on weekends, but no other forseable delays. I play Emperor, AU Mod ok

	25-06-2004 23:14									#25
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This is what makes it educational:

quote: Each player will have a DAR thread dedicated to himself, where he is the only one to post the progress of his game. Each player may update his thread with screenshots, saves, and even ask advice from members of the AU community. Neutral observers will be able to follow the games, compare them, and comment in a special spoiler thread.

	26-06-2004 01:55									#26
	Re: Summer Term: AU 601 - Introduction to Multiplayer Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: [SIZE=1] Interested? Register here, stating: The times you can play your turns. How many turns per day you hope to play. Any time periods of planned vacation when you won’t be around Whether you prefer stock or AU mod. The diffculty level with which you are comfortable in single player games.

1. I am in Hawaii which 6 hours behind EDT or GMT -10. and home a lots so I can generally get fast turn around
2. Three to Six.
3. Oct I'll be gone 3+ weeks, all also be gone a couple of weekends but basically be home.
4. Definitely prefer AU Mod.
5. I'd say Emperor mostly because I think not being able to attack the AI will make the game harder.

	26-06-2004 02:55									#27
	Re: Summer Term: AU 601 - Introduction to Multiplayer Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

great idea!

i've never finished a AU game nor posted a DAR (i once started writing one down detailed, but stopped after a nasty HDD failure), but i'll give this one a shot...

quote: Originally posted by alexman The times you can play your turns. How many turns per day you hope to play. Any time periods of planned vacation when you won’t be around Whether you prefer stock or AU mod. The diffculty level with which you are comfortable in single player games.

1: daily several turns (11-19 GMT), intense often in evenings (around 19-24 GMT)
2: once or twice a week rapid fire sessions (around 2-4 hours), otherwise maybe average 3 turns during the day?
3: no vacation planned, but the 2nd half of september is going to be very busy for me (end of writing master thesis, job applications, etc)
4: don't really care... but for AU's sake, AU mod makes more sence
5: stock rules: between monarch and emperor; AU mod rules: monarch, maybe even less.

	26-06-2004 03:01									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

is cultural conversion allowed for expansion? and can one settle foreign lands (ZS)? what about pillaging neighbors to prevend them taking too much of one's own space?

oh... and land size please not above standard

	26-06-2004 03:10									#29
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This is what I think:

Cultural conversions will be on, so you have to defend your cities against flips, but since you cannot take control of AI-founded cities, you have to reject the conversion if it happens. You can accept flips of the other human player's cities though (most likely if he invades your country).

You can settle in foreign lands, and you can attack and pillage all you want. Just don't attack AI cities you have not founded.

The map will be an 8-player standard pangaea.

	26-06-2004 05:17									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmmm -


1 & 2- Turns: Several per day (3 to 15), from 14:00 CDT till say 01:00. Of course, more turns per day early on, and fewer once they get intense.

3 - Out of town Last weekend in July, Also, I am in Grad School full time, so the last 2 weeks of July in general will be limited. August - No Plans, No Commitments at all.

4 - No Preference on Mod, never used it, but I've played my own mods (AU Mod does work on Conquests right?)

5 - Regent, Monarch, or Emperor


For the Civ choices, I was thinking a combination of Sci, Exp, Agr, or Comm since this is going to be a builder/manipulative game, with a late game weapons free point. Personally, I prefer a Late UU, so I can be more selective about my golden age... Oooh Maybe the Russians with Exp. and Sci, and Cossacks.


That's all that occurs to me at the moment.

Kevin